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If those who had died in "their time" had lived longer (if Oscar Wilde had seen WWI and other ideas)

Possibly a necropost, and thus (I think?) against the rules, but the idea felt interesting enough to share, esp. with Muppet-themed Xmas shows likely airing ad nauseam over the next month:

What if Jim Henson doesn't die in 1990? What does this likely do for the subsequent work by the Henson Company, for his son Brian's work, and the Company's relationship with Disney?
 
I would like too seen h.p. lovecraft write some more books in the 1950s.
I am curious how a senator Humphrey would work in a Reagan admintration.
 
I think the Christopher Lasch comparison re. a surviving Orwell is a good one. With his rather romantic cultural conservatism (as discussed - the love of the imperial system, antipathy towards "foreign food" &c) I would go with David Stubbs' supposition on Facebook some years ago: that rock music, in terms of his feeling for the working class and its cultural endeavours, would most likely have been his undoing (all the more so because, while rock's first fans in the UK probably were less likely to listen to mainland European and especially Italian *music* than their parents who'd seen the levelling effects of war and had embraced opera as never before or since in the working class except, perhaps, in the early 1990s as I mentioned before, the new American music also brought with it the first wave of Europeanisation, specifically from the Italian direction, in food and drink). Basically another Richard Hoggart - himself someone who lived far beyond the context in which he initially unleashed something and then saw it very rapidly grow away from him: a critic of early rock'n'roll as "inauthentic candyfloss culture" who survived into the age of Duke Dumont and Dizzee Rascal's number ones (I would have said Wiley as well but ... you know).

I'd have been interested to see how a surviving Auberon Waugh would have reacted to the cultural shifts of the 00s and 10s. I can well imagine that he would *not* have welcomed the Golden Jubilee, the subsequent wave of posh pop and the obvious political aftereffects as a resurgence for his class to be celebrated as the younger writers at the Telegraph did: he'd probably have seen the whole continuum as a sellout to mass culture. Even as Cameron slashed the state, Bron would probably have seen that government as wannabe-prole traitors, amazing as that would seem to anyone even 10 years younger than Bron was. He'd also have strongly opposed the 2003 invasion of Iraq but from a "vulgar burger-munchers" perspective which would have made him an uneasy ally for relatively younger opponents of that war who were always very anxious to point out that they weren't snobbish or disdainful about Hollywood or rock music. The fact that he'd have walked it culturally against the "masters of war" like he talked it politically, as younger opponents of that war made a point of *not* doing, would have made him almost friendliness because he wasn't in either "tribe" (basically this is where Peter Hitchens actually was over that war, of course). And obviously he'd have *massively* opposed Brexit, but again more from a "we need to stay in the EU to keep US pop culture out" perspective which likewise would have made him a deeply uneasy ally for younger opponents of it who stressed that they were pro-multiculturalism, pro-globalism &c., intensely and proudly *xenophile* and supported the EU as part of that, rather than supporting it *as a means of keeping other foreign influences out* (Bron's position basically was the phantom "Tories become Gaullist/Christian Democrat" one which often comes around when people talk of Heath winning an earlier Feb 74 election.)

And if Sandy Denny had survived and come through, she'd have found herself embraced in her fifties and sixties in places which would have held her in contempt in her thirties and forties, assuming that the long unfashionability of prog and folk-rock was followed by rehabilitation as in OTL. Maybe even a British state honour, as given in OTL to the singer in a deliberately similarly-named band.
 
Possibly a necropost, and thus (I think?) against the rules, but the idea felt interesting enough to share, esp. with Muppet-themed Xmas shows likely airing ad nauseam over the next month:

What if Jim Henson doesn't die in 1990? What does this likely do for the subsequent work by the Henson Company, for his son Brian's work, and the Company's relationship with Disney?
There's an outstanding TL involving Jim Henson at the other place, A Hippie in the House of Mouse by Geekhis Khan, which I think would be a great addition to the SLP catalog.
 
Possibly a necropost, and thus (I think?) against the rules, but the idea felt interesting enough to share, esp. with Muppet-themed Xmas shows likely airing ad nauseam over the next month:

What if Jim Henson doesn't die in 1990? What does this likely do for the subsequent work by the Henson Company, for his son Brian's work, and the Company's relationship with Disney?

That's a big one when it means Disney buys the Henson Company over a decade earlier and he gets some creative input. And I'd assume it nobbles Farscape or at least makes it an extremely different show if it's a Disney project, a lot less bawdy humour and BDSM going on there
 
Sort of the inverse of this: if David Attenborough had died in 1990, we'd be wondering if there'd still have been a place for him within deregulated, multi-platform broadcasting.

I don't think anyone much would be speculating on that to be honest but I do think a lot of people would be speculating on how his views on climate change would have panned out and whether he would have done a David Bellamy. Which he may have come close to doing IOTL. He certainly was not in any shape ahead of the curve on the issue.
 
Rather surprised there isn't a lot on Martin Luther King or Malcolm X, surely the most notable instances of "brutally cut down in their prime" in recent history. And I think the WIs of them living a full natural lifespan go in very different directions.

MLK's life is actually rather predictable. As mentioned before King likely wouldn't make it past sixty, and indeed probably doesn't make to fifty on account of his bad heart and chain smoking. While his politics remained fairly consistent and coherent throughout his life at the time of his death his they were becoming more class-based (he was in Memphis to support a strike) and more critical of American foreign policy, the sort of criticism that would make relations with the northern liberal political establishment harder but not necessarily impossible. He definitely ends up on Nixon's enemies list (although the butterflies from no 1968 assassination and lack of resultant riots may well tip that year's presidential elections the other way) and a rhetorical target of the New Right through the 1970s. His tactics of pacifist civil disobedience won't change but probably have more mixed success. His public reputation probably remains about as mixed as it was at the time of his death, though it would be interesting to see what happens to it once his once-politically disastrous views on the Vietnam War get entirely vindicated. Though I suspect he makes a lot of new enemies with his views on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Despite his politics becoming more radical in the late 1960s I suspect MLK's reputation as a moderate is probably even stronger than OTL. OTL in his final years he was facing increasing criticism within the civil rights movement from younger activists over his conciliatory rhetoric and tactics; movements like the Black Panthers were in large part a reaction to the perceived failure of King's politics (ymmv whether such radicalism was accelerated by King's assassination) And if he were alive at the height of this black radicalism he would exist in opposition to them; he wouldn't spare them criticism and he would likely become a rhetorical and physical target for the most radical and violent of those groups.

But with that said if King dies of natural causes, either suddenly or slowly, likely sooner rather than later, probably means he has a similar aura of tragedy around him, a great man cruelly cut off in mid-stream in a way that allows him to be strongly mythologized. That said there's probably slightly less of the myth-making given that he would simply have said more things on the record, and his passing would come after the peak of his career. He doesn't get a bank holiday in his name. A day to commemorate civil rights or an African American historical figure (Frederick Douglass Day, anyone?) probably does happen in his memory.

This ended up being way longer than I thought it would be so I'll do Malcolm X in another post.
 
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Rather surprised there isn't a lot on Martin Luther King or Malcolm X, surely the most notable instances of "brutally cut down in their prime" in recent history. And I think the WIs of them living a full natural lifespan go in very different directions.

MLK's life is actually rather predictable. As mentioned before King likely wouldn't make it past sixty, and indeed probably doesn't make to fifty on account of his bad heart and chain smoking. While his politics remained fairly consistent and coherent throughout his life at the time of his death his they were becoming more class-based (he was in Memphis to support a strike) and more critical of American foreign policy, the sort of criticism that would make relations with the northern liberal political establishment harder but not necessarily impossible. He definitely ends up on Nixon's enemies list (although the butterflies from no 1968 assassination and lack of resultant riots may well tip that year's presidential elections the other way) and a rhetorical target of the New Right through the 1970s. His tactics of pacifist civil disobedience won't change but probably have more mixed success. His public reputation probably remains about as mixed as it was at the time of his death, though it would be interesting to see what happens to it once his once-politically disastrous views on the Vietnam War get entirely vindicated. Though I suspect he makes a lot of new enemies with his views on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Despite his politics becoming more I suspect MLK's reputation as a moderate is probably even stronger than OTL. OTL in his final years he was facing increasing criticism within the civil rights movement from younger activists over his conciliatory rhetoric and tactics; movements like the Black Panthers were in large part a reaction to the perceived failure of King's politics (ymmv whether such radicalism was accelerated by King's assassination) And if he were alive at the height of this black radicalism he would exist in opposition to them; he wouldn't spare them criticism and he would likely become a rhetorical and physical target for the most radical and violent of those groups.

But with that said if King dies of natural causes, either suddenly or slowly, likely sooner rather than later, probably means he has a similar aura of tragedy around him, a great man cruelly cut off in mid-stream in a way that allows him to be strongly mythologized. That said there's probably slightly less of the myth-making given that he would simply have said more things on the record, and his passing would come after the peak of his career. He doesn't get a bank holiday in his name. A day to commemorate civil rights or an African American historical figure (Frederick Douglass Day, anyone?) probably does happen in his memory.

This ended up being way longer than I thought it would be so I'll do Malcolm X in another post.

Malcom X is an interesting one - if he lived to lets say eighty, he'd have died in 2005! Its not entirely impossible to imagine a 97 year old Malik el-Shabazz wandering around. Thats a very interesting thing to think about. I wonder if the Nation of Islam, or another form of African-American Islam would have become more mainstream?
 
Thats a very interesting thing to think about. I wonder if the Nation of Islam, or another form of African-American Islam would have become more mainstream?
In John Lewis’s March, he recounts meeting Malcom X in Nairobi in 1964, not long after he left the Nation of Islam. Malcolm’s talking points during there meeting seem to be rooted in what I would best describe as a hodge podge of Anti-Imperialist, African Socialist, Islamic Socialist, Anti-Capitalist elements.

If Malcolm X was to continue, I could see him being a supporter of the type of tactics that Fred Hampton used in the late 60s.
 
In John Lewis’s March, he recounts meeting Malcom X in Nairobi in 1964, not long after he left the Nation of Islam. Malcolm’s talking points during there meeting seem to be rooted in what I would best describe as a hodge podge of Anti-Imperialist, African Socialist, Islamic Socialist, Anti-Capitalist elements.

If Malcolm X was to continue, I could see him being a supporter of the type of tactics that Fred Hampton used in the late 60s.
The impact of a living Malcolm X is also that some activists don't get quite so radicalised as OTL - figures who IOTL ended up committing themselves to the Black Liberation Army could end up taking a different political path.
 
Malcom X is an interesting one - if he lived to lets say eighty, he'd have died in 2005! Its not entirely impossible to imagine a 97 year old Malik el-Shabazz wandering around. Thats a very interesting thing to think about. I wonder if the Nation of Islam, or another form of African-American Islam would have become more mainstream?

In John Lewis’s March, he recounts meeting Malcom X in Nairobi in 1964, not long after he left the Nation of Islam. Malcolm’s talking points during there meeting seem to be rooted in what I would best describe as a hodge podge of Anti-Imperialist, African Socialist, Islamic Socialist, Anti-Capitalist elements.

If Malcolm X was to continue, I could see him being a supporter of the type of tactics that Fred Hampton used in the late 60s.

Malcolm X is a far more interesting counterfactual. His politics and tactics were very much in flux at the point that he died, taking on more conciliatory and pacifist rhetoric, and it's far less easy to predict the trajectory over the following years and decades. And given that he was in better health than the contemporary he frequently derided it's plausible that, as Mumby says, he's a presence in American life and politics well into the 2000s, maybe into the 2010s, maybe even now.

Where might he have gone? Politics is downstream from personality. And Malcolm X's personality was loud, extroverted and frequently volatile. He actively courted controversy, reveled in outrage and frequently fell out with colleagues and allies. At the same time those traits were tempered (or sometimes magnified) by constant introspection and cerebral political analysis. His personality, like his politics, was definitely softening round the edges at the time of his murder. But I also think it's unlikely it would stay in one place for very long.

(And on the subject of his personality; can you imagine what he'd be like on Twitter?)

So while I agree that he likely would've gotten stuck into politics and tactics of Fred Hampton (although as Mumby mentions, the radicalisation of civil rights movements is at least partially butterflied by Martin and/or Malcolm not being assassinated) and loudly support them in provocative manners. I'm not sure if it would stick, especially considering how such groups receded in scope and influence through the 1970s. I think over his long life his style and tone and cause célèbres could potentially vary quite a bit.

Unlike MLK I think Malcolm's image and reputation would be unrecognisable if he had lived a natural lifespan. His image is far more deeply intertwined with his martyrdom than King's and his image is also linked with the inflammatory, confrontational politics he was only starting to move away from in the final year of his life. How he would be seen today is very much an open question that can be answered only through interpretation and imagination.

It's tempting to imagine him on a rightward trajectory similar to Roy Innis, eventually backing Republicans and conservative causes first out of accelerationism and then sincere principle which remaining consistently hateful of establishment liberalism. Plausible, perhaps tragic - he'd certainly be looked at a rather tragic figure who talked radicalism then sold out - but not the most likely.

I think what's more likely is a status and reputation similar to Louis Farrakhan OTL: a highly influential activist and public figure - perhaps something of an elder statesman - but one who becomes a great liability to a lot of his radical causes and allies. I certainly doubt he makes it into the new millennium without some rather unsparing public "re-evaluation" of his more offensive comments and allies and Malcolm X was not exactly the personality type who favoured public contrition.

On that note, both Martin and Macolm were both very lucky to have died decades before #MeToo.
 
Malcolm X is a far more interesting counterfactual. His politics and tactics were very much in flux at the point that he died, taking on more conciliatory and pacifist rhetoric, and it's far less easy to predict the trajectory over the following years and decades. And given that he was in better health than the contemporary he frequently derided it's plausible that, as Mumby says, he's a presence in American life and politics well into the 2000s, maybe into the 2010s, maybe even now.

Where might he have gone? Politics is downstream from personality. And Malcolm X's personality was loud, extroverted and frequently volatile. He actively courted controversy, reveled in outrage and frequently fell out with colleagues and allies. At the same time those traits were tempered (or sometimes magnified) by constant introspection and cerebral political analysis. His personality, like his politics, was definitely softening round the edges at the time of his murder. But I also think it's unlikely it would stay in one place for very long.

It's honestly not that hard to imagine some level of reconciliation or at least improved relations between MLK and Malcom (or at least a kind of shared admission that their disagreements are generally more about personality than politics), and AIUI their wives were actually fairly close later in life. It's not hard to imagine a trajectory of a shared afro-socialist and anti-imperialist political formation that 1) gets either tarred to hell and back over Vietnam or 2) a wind in its sails for being vindicated about Vietnam. I also (probably wrongly but who knows) suspect that the trajectory of the civil rights movement is overall more successful c. 1965-68 with both major leaders able to at least somewhat co-ordinate liberal and radical elements within the movement. I suspect there's a good story to tell about a Malcom who outlives MLK in this scenario and how that shapes him...
 
Malcom X is an interesting one - if he lived to lets say eighty, he'd have died in 2005! Its not entirely impossible to imagine a 97 year old Malik el-Shabazz wandering around. Thats a very interesting thing to think about. I wonder if the Nation of Islam, or another form of African-American Islam would have become more mainstream?

It did become more mainstream. In 1975, Elijah Mohammed died, and his son Warith Deen took over. W. D. Mohammed was a sincere student of Islamic theology, and he was also keen on building ecumenical ties to other branches of the Muslim faith. He also felt that the civil rights movements for African Americans could benefit from forging ties with other ethnic minorities. It took him less than a year to disband the entire organization and publicly convert to Sunni Islam.

The thing you see today being led by Louis Farrakhan is just a rump with but a fraction of the membership the organization had back in the 60s and 70s. They shouldn't even be called the Nation of Islam. We should be calling them 'the Continuity NoI'.
 
It did become more mainstream. In 1975, Elijah Mohammed died, and his son Warith Deen took over. W. D. Mohammed was a sincere student of Islamic theology, and he was also keen on building ecumenical ties to other branches of the Muslim faith. He also felt that the civil rights movements for African Americans could benefit from forging ties with other ethnic minorities. It took him less than a year to disband the entire organization and publicly convert to Sunni Islam.

The thing you see today being led by Louis Farrakhan is just a rump with but a fraction of the membership the organization had back in the 60s and 70s. They shouldn't even be called the Nation of Islam. We should be calling them 'the Continuity NoI'.

Actually, the more you look into W. D. Mohammed, the more you get the impression that he was just a person that fundamentally was so decent, that despite his upbringing, despite who his father was, despite everything that had been drilled into his head every day for years and years and years, despite all that, it just wasn't enough to do away with all of his inate decentness.

Should really be an inspiration for all of us.
 
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