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If those who had died in "their time" had lived longer (if Oscar Wilde had seen WWI and other ideas)
- Thread starter Aznavour
- Start date
Not knowing much about Nation of Islam, I had a look and saw W.D. Mohammed introduced the Five Pillars to it. The Five Pillars are a central part of Islam! He had to bring it in!! Bloody hell.
JesterBL
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That's because the Nation of Islam is descended from the Moorish Science Temple, which was essentially Theosophy with North African window dressing.
Would have been interesting to hear James Garfield's thoughts on the Progressive Era and World War I had he not been assassinated back in 1881. He would have been 82 years old in August 1914 if World War I would have started on schedule, which admittedly is very, very far from guaranteed in this TL. He had a brother who lived to age 87 and a sister who lived to age 90. And his mother lived to age 86.
RobinCarmody
Active member
This one just jumped out at me: what if Enid Blyton lived to be 90, and therefore witnessed the 1970s and most of the 1980s?
You can certainly imagine her being paranoid about Britain going communist in the 1970s (in OTL, the updated ITV adaptation of the Famous Five didn't have its last episode shown in London, Northern Ireland, Wales and parts of the West of England, because it finished just before the huge strike and those regions had already gone) and seeing the Falklands War as a great resurrection/vindication of her worldview (in OTL, Valerie Grove in the Evening Standard seemed to herald its aftermath as a sign of Blyton's rehabilitation).
And it would have been interesting to see if she carried on writing, how her old-age work in such a timeline would have been perceived and whether it would have damaged her reputation even among her defenders by being very clearly out of touch (an OTL parallel here is maybe late-life Agatha Christie), and what she'd have thought of the criticism directed at her when it came from the New Left, as opposed to the criticism in her own period of activity which had more to do with her less sophisticated writing style, and indeed championed many authors - Antonia Forest and that lot - who were every bit as hated among Blyton's 1970s critics as Blyton herself, and indeed very much embraced the whole "Britain will be communist by 1984" narrative themselves.
You can certainly imagine her being paranoid about Britain going communist in the 1970s (in OTL, the updated ITV adaptation of the Famous Five didn't have its last episode shown in London, Northern Ireland, Wales and parts of the West of England, because it finished just before the huge strike and those regions had already gone) and seeing the Falklands War as a great resurrection/vindication of her worldview (in OTL, Valerie Grove in the Evening Standard seemed to herald its aftermath as a sign of Blyton's rehabilitation).
And it would have been interesting to see if she carried on writing, how her old-age work in such a timeline would have been perceived and whether it would have damaged her reputation even among her defenders by being very clearly out of touch (an OTL parallel here is maybe late-life Agatha Christie), and what she'd have thought of the criticism directed at her when it came from the New Left, as opposed to the criticism in her own period of activity which had more to do with her less sophisticated writing style, and indeed championed many authors - Antonia Forest and that lot - who were every bit as hated among Blyton's 1970s critics as Blyton herself, and indeed very much embraced the whole "Britain will be communist by 1984" narrative themselves.
RobinCarmody
Active member
Another good one: what if David Widgery (who died at 45 in 1992) had lived to see the Blair years?
Specifically I'm thinking about some lines from his Telegraph (but remarkably even-handed considering its source) obituary: "his Leninist comrades were sometimes disconcerted by his libertarianism ... he was a fervent believer in the redemptive qualities of rock'n'roll". Had he lived to see the boomer-rock takeover of the Labour Party have the effect on its economic policies that it did (his obituary was published just as Bill Clinton won the US presidency: I haven't dared to check, but I'm sure that a Times article of the period by Libby Purves mentioning Leonard Cohen would be "what would it mean if we could also have a political leader who would have listened to artists like that?", little realising how John Smith's death 18 months later would greatly accelerate that process here), and specifically the way rock music was invoked by supporters of Blair's involvement in the 2003 invasion of Iraq to justify it, might he have retreated to older forms of socialism in embarrassment, decided that the Hoggartists had been right all along?
And that's one of the things we can apply to Dennis Potter not dying a month after John Smith - might the invocation of rock music to justify an, if anything, even more stupid and imperial Middle Eastern adventure than Suez have made him disavow Lipstick on Your Collar in similar embarrassment? Even beyond that, we can wonder what place there would have been for a surviving Potter - whether he might have withdrawn in anger and shame and decided that he could no longer cope with how TV had changed, whether he might perhaps have returned to other fields which he had seen as elitist and narrow by comparison, though no doubt an octogenarian Potter would have taken pleasure in the 2017 Corbyn surge's effective forcing of the sale of large swathes of the Murdoch empire. But certainly the sense that the world had left him behind might have impaired and damaged his reputation in some circles; he was forced in the most horrible circumstances to leave us with a chilling double sign-off and maybe that was better for his standing today.
And then there's John Peel. Becoming a "haw-haw, Cameron really listens to Elgar" type would *certainly* have damaged his reputation. You'd hope that having held out for it when it survived mainly on the fringes, he'd be horrified by what vinyl has become today, a tool of the new establishment and very much the equivalent, in terms of an endless reissue cycle and privileging of the old over the new, of CD in its early years when he was profoundly wary of it. You get people who say "he was worse than Jonathan King in sexual terms" I think largely because they privilege the level on which JK thought of pop and are suspicious of what they imagine Peel was (as opposed to what he actually was, because in reality he didn't like academic studies of pop either) and I *think* he would have come through that, though he makes a chilling comment in a 1973 show in relation to his appearance at a girls' grammar school (one of the surviving ones today, as it turned out). But I do wonder if the increasing culture-wars separation in pop, the hostility to rock as a new-establishment form by Black artists he might otherwise have wanted to champion, might *finally* have been his undoing. Negotiating the divisions that have followed his death would have been difficult for someone who prided himself in breaking through the tensions which have separated the bands he'd always championed and, say, grime (which he was championing just before his death, and listening to pirates when he was in London), and I'm not sure if even his continued presence could, in itself, have prevented them.
Specifically I'm thinking about some lines from his Telegraph (but remarkably even-handed considering its source) obituary: "his Leninist comrades were sometimes disconcerted by his libertarianism ... he was a fervent believer in the redemptive qualities of rock'n'roll". Had he lived to see the boomer-rock takeover of the Labour Party have the effect on its economic policies that it did (his obituary was published just as Bill Clinton won the US presidency: I haven't dared to check, but I'm sure that a Times article of the period by Libby Purves mentioning Leonard Cohen would be "what would it mean if we could also have a political leader who would have listened to artists like that?", little realising how John Smith's death 18 months later would greatly accelerate that process here), and specifically the way rock music was invoked by supporters of Blair's involvement in the 2003 invasion of Iraq to justify it, might he have retreated to older forms of socialism in embarrassment, decided that the Hoggartists had been right all along?
And that's one of the things we can apply to Dennis Potter not dying a month after John Smith - might the invocation of rock music to justify an, if anything, even more stupid and imperial Middle Eastern adventure than Suez have made him disavow Lipstick on Your Collar in similar embarrassment? Even beyond that, we can wonder what place there would have been for a surviving Potter - whether he might have withdrawn in anger and shame and decided that he could no longer cope with how TV had changed, whether he might perhaps have returned to other fields which he had seen as elitist and narrow by comparison, though no doubt an octogenarian Potter would have taken pleasure in the 2017 Corbyn surge's effective forcing of the sale of large swathes of the Murdoch empire. But certainly the sense that the world had left him behind might have impaired and damaged his reputation in some circles; he was forced in the most horrible circumstances to leave us with a chilling double sign-off and maybe that was better for his standing today.
And then there's John Peel. Becoming a "haw-haw, Cameron really listens to Elgar" type would *certainly* have damaged his reputation. You'd hope that having held out for it when it survived mainly on the fringes, he'd be horrified by what vinyl has become today, a tool of the new establishment and very much the equivalent, in terms of an endless reissue cycle and privileging of the old over the new, of CD in its early years when he was profoundly wary of it. You get people who say "he was worse than Jonathan King in sexual terms" I think largely because they privilege the level on which JK thought of pop and are suspicious of what they imagine Peel was (as opposed to what he actually was, because in reality he didn't like academic studies of pop either) and I *think* he would have come through that, though he makes a chilling comment in a 1973 show in relation to his appearance at a girls' grammar school (one of the surviving ones today, as it turned out). But I do wonder if the increasing culture-wars separation in pop, the hostility to rock as a new-establishment form by Black artists he might otherwise have wanted to champion, might *finally* have been his undoing. Negotiating the divisions that have followed his death would have been difficult for someone who prided himself in breaking through the tensions which have separated the bands he'd always championed and, say, grime (which he was championing just before his death, and listening to pirates when he was in London), and I'm not sure if even his continued presence could, in itself, have prevented them.
There's a darker path here, which is Christie is theorised to have been suffering early dementia in her last years and one of Blyton's daughters said Enid was definitely having it so the longer Blyton lived, the more she'd be known to have it and that would colour reactions to her work & how she was remembered posthumously. It could be a bit gauche to criticise or satire her books if she's still alive and known to be ill. Might be similar to how Louis Wain, artist of hundreds of thousands of funny cat pictures, had been less and less fashionable until people learned he was in an asylum and suddenly he was this beloved figure of our past who needed help.
Speaking of Louis Wain, he died right before World War Two broke out which is an almost symbolic time for a gentle eccentric who draws (usually) innocent colourful pictures to drop dead; he then wasn't rediscovered until the 1960s. In the 1930s, there'd been a few well-attended gallery shows of new cat art he was drawing. If he'd lasted a few more years in good enough health to keep drawing, which is not completely out of the range of possibility, there might have been some more gallery shows at a time when a lot of museums had their works in storage and you might fancy seeing some nice funny cat pictures to take your mind off the bombings. I could see that being moderately popular and keeping his name around for longer, especially if it ends up in Britain Can Take It propaganda.
RobinCarmody
Active member
Humphrey Jennings, who died the same year as Orwell, is a very similar case: as with Orwell, you feel that his failure to empathise with the mass working-class discovery of rock'n'roll - "candyfloss culture" and all that - would have been his undoing and would have damaged his reputation.
If he'd gone on to work for, say, British Transport Films, it would have been seen as dispiriting late-career hackwork other than among anoraks until the last 20 years or so, when it would have been taken more seriously by critics as in OTL.
If he'd gone on to work for, say, British Transport Films, it would have been seen as dispiriting late-career hackwork other than among anoraks until the last 20 years or so, when it would have been taken more seriously by critics as in OTL.
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I know this is nearly 4 years later but I would note that Macmillan's longevity by lasting 24 more years after he left office did actually lead to something arguably quite consequential - it was his advice that led to Thatcher excluding Howe from the Falklands War Cabinet (it's unlikely that Frank Cooper would have swayer her alone on this), which is the kind of fissure within the traditional relationship which leads us to the fundamental tensions between Thatcher and Lawson that tore Thatcher apart and set up Major's overruling relationship with Lamont that led us to Black Wednesday
If Macmillan had his time over again he'd have carried on as PM. I think 1964 would have been reversed- and then?
Up to the 1964 election the Conservatives loosened the purse strings (Maudling’s ‘dash for growth‘) and left Labour picking up the pieces. If they won the election the Government would need the contract the economy to help the balance of payments, but this would dampen confidence so you have a return to ‘stop go’. This happened in 1961-2 contributing to the Government’s unpopularity, the loss of a string of by-elections, and the infamous ‘Night of the Long Knives’ where Macmillan sacked the Chancellor and 7 other Ministers.
The Government is likely to be in a difficult spot and there are no easy answers, they tried wage freezes before, EEC entry, and the NEDC but these were either very unpopular, not possible, or ineffective. Unemployment is likely to rise to Macmillan’s horror. Would not be surprised if he resigns in 1965-1966, he’d already have served 7-8 years and the pressure for a change in leadership would be very difficult to resist at this point. Which means that perhaps Home comes in, or Butler (if not retired yet) or Heath. If the majority is alright they might make it to 1969 (likely seeing token presence in Vietnam, immigration controls, perhaps something like the Heath industrial relations reforms), at which point Labour come in. Devaluation may happen later (but not by that long) than 1967 if Labour not in power in the 1960s.
Avian Overlord
Mystical American Freedom Bird
The closest analogy to the NoI is the volkish neopaganism of Europe, IMO.
I would guess narrow victory.in 1964, Rhodesia settled and fresh big win in 1965-66 on manifesto including pledge to make immigration White Paper law. I don't think.any British government would have got involved mili
Thought that occurred while paging thru The Plot Against America: What if Charles Lindbergh Jr. (the "Lindbergh Baby") hadn't been kidnapped and later died, or had been but survived?
If the former, the only change I can guess with any certainty is that the Lindbergh family doesn't go into semi-seclusion in England, and thus Charles Sr. never goes to Germany, thus branding himself as pro-Nazi and appeaser for the rest of his life (given his fame, however, the U.S. military might still send him there to assess German aviation as in OTL). No idea what happens to Charles Junior or the family as a whole, although Senior having kids by multiple German mistresses is probably out, or at best less likely.
If the latter, setting aside how the kidnapping case/investigation turns out, it might elevate the family in general and Junior in particular to even more of a "heroic" status, and maybe add more pressure on Senior to run for office of some kind. A Lindbergh political dynasty is intriguing, but I have doubts it's workable; maybe at least Senior's later-life conservation efforts get more notice/backing?
Thoughts?
If the former, the only change I can guess with any certainty is that the Lindbergh family doesn't go into semi-seclusion in England, and thus Charles Sr. never goes to Germany, thus branding himself as pro-Nazi and appeaser for the rest of his life (given his fame, however, the U.S. military might still send him there to assess German aviation as in OTL). No idea what happens to Charles Junior or the family as a whole, although Senior having kids by multiple German mistresses is probably out, or at best less likely.
If the latter, setting aside how the kidnapping case/investigation turns out, it might elevate the family in general and Junior in particular to even more of a "heroic" status, and maybe add more pressure on Senior to run for office of some kind. A Lindbergh political dynasty is intriguing, but I have doubts it's workable; maybe at least Senior's later-life conservation efforts get more notice/backing?
Thoughts?
JesterBL
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Sort of a huge one that I am surprised wasn't mentioned here or in the pop culture thread- Elvis. He died at 42. If we can get him to live as long as Johnny Cash (died at 71 years, also struggled with health issues and substance abuse) he would honestly have witnessed the birth of and nearly made it to the death of the last major rock-based subculture (emo) in the United States (and I personally think that even in an Elvis Lives! scenario he probably would have been peripheral to the mainstream from the late 70s on so we probably could have been able to see a mostly similar pop culture trajectory*).
You could even have some fun with such a scenario, like him going into the studio with The Cramps a la Wanda Jackson or Charlie Feathers in the 2000s, maybe him weighing in on country music's divisions in the 1990s as a Johnny-come-lately elder statesmen, or for max parallelism, rediscovering his heavy rock'n'roll roots for a series of solo albums with a famed American producer**.
*Elvis despite being viewed as kind of a joke nowadays had two extraordinarily successful stages in his career, better than any other rock'n'roll contemporary and he did so with a manager who is probably among the worst managers of all time, even judged against his peers, so this may be underselling Elvis and would likely depend on how well and in what condition we can get him past '78
**I know, I know, Johnny Cash was country yada yada- I think his career and reputation is better understood when you realize he was Sun's rock'n'roll sensation immediately after Elvis- and rather than coming into the fold of rock fans, he was just rejoining them after a long career and sideline in country, and I bet alt-Elvis would still have appeal to an alt-Rick Rubin
You could even have some fun with such a scenario, like him going into the studio with The Cramps a la Wanda Jackson or Charlie Feathers in the 2000s, maybe him weighing in on country music's divisions in the 1990s as a Johnny-come-lately elder statesmen, or for max parallelism, rediscovering his heavy rock'n'roll roots for a series of solo albums with a famed American producer**.
*Elvis despite being viewed as kind of a joke nowadays had two extraordinarily successful stages in his career, better than any other rock'n'roll contemporary and he did so with a manager who is probably among the worst managers of all time, even judged against his peers, so this may be underselling Elvis and would likely depend on how well and in what condition we can get him past '78
**I know, I know, Johnny Cash was country yada yada- I think his career and reputation is better understood when you realize he was Sun's rock'n'roll sensation immediately after Elvis- and rather than coming into the fold of rock fans, he was just rejoining them after a long career and sideline in country, and I bet alt-Elvis would still have appeal to an alt-Rick Rubin
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Elvis with Rubin would probably have been massive, since as you say if he's in good condition he's got a lot going for him even before you add in his name would still be iconic. And like Cash later on, he'd have the power of age behind him if he wants to tap into it: the once youthful hip swinger, now a hardworn 60-something with a history of addictions and being screwed over, and he's still standing.
Did Lindbergh himself have political ambitions in real life?