Different sides of different rings: Wrestling PODs and such

[Coiler]

Obvious wrestling POD: What if Owen Hart survives (ie, the drop stunt never happens or is done in a safer manner)?

 

[RyanF]

Obvious wrestling POD: What if Owen Hart survives (ie, the drop stunt never happens or is done in a safer manner)?

The sad fact may be: not much.

In the grand scheme of things, that is, but for the fans it would make the good even better. I've heard that Owen wasn't 100% on-board with the raunchiness of the Attitude Era (sadly, this is what led to the revival of The Blue Blazer gimmick) and was carefully saving money for an early retirement. The reason he didn't follow his brother and brothers-in-law to WCW following the Montreal Screwjob was he was locked into a four-year contract earlier that year that was incredibly one-sided.

Fast forward to May 1999 and we all know how that ended up. Had he lived, he'd still be under contract until 2001 so he's not jumping ship to ECW or WCW (he's also not stupid). However, he's not going to be sitting on his hands for those two years in WWF either. Maybe the drop stunt never happens at Over the Edge, but the danger of it convinces Owen to go back to his usual persona. For the rest of 1999 could see he and Jeff Jarrett splitting, maybe Owen aligns with Chyna against JJ during their feud. Could see him floating around the IC/European title scenes battling with the likes of Chris Jericho and D'Lo Brown. September 1999 saw the return to the WWF of the British Bulldog too, so maybe Owen and he reform their tag team. Would make for a more dignified run for Davey Boy Smith than OTL's dog shit. Hopefully, Owen might be able to keep Davey's alcoholism and painkiller addiction (both really picked up from when he was slammed on fucking Ultimate Warrior's ring trapdoor in WCW) in check. Owen isn't going to go into a world title programme before Steve Austin goes out in late 1999 (and Austin will be going out, it was being put off for too long).

By late 1999, you'd have The Rock and Triple H as the top guys in the company. Austin is out, Undertaker is out, Shawn Michaels is long gone, and Mick Foley is winding down. It is possible Owen gets a short title programme with either or both of the former Rocky Maivia and Hunter Hearst Helmsley. Former more likely, the once and future Dwayne Johnson has a lot of respect for the Hart family and even had a short programme with Davey Boy in late 1999. Triple H less likely. I'm reminded of a fan rumour from years back that Owen was meant to get "The Game" gimmick and because of his death it wound up going to Triple H. Think it's just wishful thinking. The notion occurs too of Owen as a potential participant in the four way main event at WrestleMania 2000 - would love to see the version of that match with he and Jericho instead of Big Show and Mick Foley.

The year 2000 is really what I meant when I said Owen living might make the good even better. Imagine him in programmes with Jericho, The Radicalz, William Regal, and Kurt Angle (Angle's first WWF match was a dark match against Owen, it's high on my time travel bucket list). If his presence can keep Davey Boy from succumbing to his demons imagine those two in programmes with the Dudley Boyz, Hardy Boyz, Edge & Christian, and Too Cool. He might hover around the lower edge of the world title picture maybe sneaking into the Hell in a Cell at Armageddon 2000. His presence makes the already high-watermark year 2000 all the better.

Still expect he's going to retire whenever his contract is up. If there's any poetic justice Owen gets a decent match at WrestleMania X-Seven then goes shortly thereafter and his departure is listed alongside the Austin heel turn and the ends of ECW and WCW as the end of wrestling's last great boom period. After that would expect him (like Michaels before that Saudi money came a-callin') to be the one guy who went away and largely stayed away.

Not much, in the grand scheme of things, but Owen Hart being around in wrestling a few more years and his family for far longer is all that's needed.

 

[Coiler]

Antonio Inoki just died. RIP.

While a huge figure in pro wrestling, one of his most prominent events was a "fight" with Muhammad Ali. Since almost any divergence (besides it never happening at all) would probably improve, it could be a...

• Exhibition boxing showboat match. Quickly forgotten.
• Work boxing/wrestling match. Only a quirky footnote in Ali's career.
• Legit boxing match: Inoki loses faster than you can say "Ben Askren".
• Legit match with some kind of submission/pin win condition. Ali loses faster than you can say "James Toney".

 

[RyanF]

I was watching some Nitro yesterday, including the 18th December 1995 episode. Why is that episode significant? It's the episode where Madusa shows up at the broadcast booth with the WWF Women's Championship and dumps it in the trash.

What amazed me though is that there was zero crowd reaction to Madusa appearing, zero crowd reaction to her introducing herself, zero crowd reaction to her introducing a WWF belt, zero reaction to her dropping it in the bin.

Think it proves there wasn't that many time travellers in the crowd since they'd pop for such a pivotal moment.

Wondering if this made a women's division in WCW DOA with the lack of a reaction convincing the powers that be there was nothing in it so why put much of an effort into it beyond meeting their minimal obligations to Madusa.

Also wondering if it might have been a learning experience for when Scott Hall would debut six months later. Neither of them received any fanfare but Hall came through the crowd, jumped the barrier and got a mic in the ring.

Maybe they should have had Madusa come out to actual entrance music, introduced by David Penzer as WWF Women's Champion, cut her promo in the ring, and dumped the belt in the trash in the ring. That would have made such a statement I suspect it would have kickstarted the legal battle between the two companies and might have caused Vince McMahon to more jealously guard his talent during 1996.

 

[RyanF]

16. What if Chris Jericho or Goldberg was the mystery signing for TNA in 2006, and not Kurt Angle?

Interestingly enough, this came up on Jeff Jarrett's podcast this week. It would seem even after Angle debuted talks were still continuing ahead with Jericho, Goldberg and... Hulk Hogan.

It's made clear though that talks with Goldberg and Hogan were for a one-off appearance each, where as the talks with Jericho were to have him as a regular on TNA television.

It's interesting that it wasn't a choice between having Jericho or Angle or Goldberg but TNA could theoretically have had all three in 2006. Albeit Goldberg as a one-off, and they could have had Hogan in a similar arrangement. Hogan as a one off strikes me as less damaging (in 2006 that is) than having him around on the regular.

Between this and below summation of TNA's downfall from Velvet Sky, really have to wonder though how much difference it might have made in the long run.

​

Like, a TNA-wank TL would be really fun to imagine but even if you give them a few more marquee names in the mid-00s, even if Dixie's worst instincts can be reigned in, even if the unholy trinity of Bischoff, Hogan and Russo never become powerful behind the scenes, even if they can avoid falling out with Spike and then the whole Anthem/GFW debacle I still imagine they have a ceiling. I still see them occasionally losing the #2 spot in North America to ROH and swapping back and forward, I still see them bleeding talent to WWE, and I still see a version of *AEW coming about eventually.

 

[AH Layard]

Yeah I think TNA has a ceiling unless someone with the money, know how, and connections of Tony Khan steps in. But I think they could have provided a much stronger alternative to WWE than they did and forced WWE to adapt its product in response.

2005 to Bound for Glory 2006 felt like the peak period for me, when all the momentum was on their side. Unfortunately they combined the signing of Kurt Angle with Vince Russo’s return to booking, and the product noticeably declined. The X-Division and tag team divisions went downhill fast and there was so much nonsense. I’ve often thought what could have been, but now we have AEW it feels less tragic looking back.

 

[Charles EP M.]

What if there isn't an AEW and covid has even less jobs for wrestlers in America & promise that there'll be some later? That feels like it'd be Game Over for a lot of careers. Throw in Speaking Out - remember that it killed off a few indie companies like Chikara - and have you given wrestling a severe body blow?

 

[RyanF]

What if there isn't an AEW and covid has even less jobs for wrestlers in America & promise that there'll be some later? That feels like it'd be Game Over for a lot of careers. Throw in Speaking Out - remember that it killed off a few indie companies like Chikara - and have you given wrestling a severe body blow?

For there to be no AEW I'd imagine there'd have to be no All-In. You probably get Adam Page, Cody Rhodes and the Young Bucks going to WWE/NXT; Kenny Omega is staying in NJPW. NXT is going to have a second peak during 2019, but I'm doubtful it'd translate to the main roster since Vince is gonna Vince. Early 2020 and COVID still hits: WWE has still been hoarding talent, they were doing that since before AEW to keep them from the indies so I expect to still see releases in the middle of the pandemic due to "budget cuts". Any of the Elite that were signed to WWE are probably on a nice contract with several clauses that will cause Vince's blood to boil, so I expect them to be gone. There'd probably be some who were released in 2019 or earlier in 2020 without the fear of AEW snapping them up, but I still expect a deluge in 2020 when WWE believes there's nowhere for them to go.

ROH is in hibernation during the pandemic and if they've still given Marty Scurll the book have a lot to worry about. Impact is Impact. Can't go to Mexico or Japan due to the travel restrictions. Actual indies are unable to run shows and some of them now have a real taint to their name. However, these are creative, inventive people in the age of social media. I'd expect them to do all they could on Being the Elite (possibly under a new name if WWE had it on the Network and now try to copyright the name) to keep their names out there and keep fans up to date. Venues etc. might be difficult to come by but I expect lots of vignettes and cinematic matches being put on YouTube. Think the very beginning of Control Your Narrative before it went all Edgelord, only this time it's the people behind All-In/AEW.

From there, expect as soon as restrictions loosen in the US (or Florida at least, remember AEW had some fans back as early as August 2020) you see a few small near empty arena shows. Maybe with some ROH and/or Impact involvement; NWA too might be in a better position than they have been since the pandemic hit. I'd then expect once restrictions are lifted further (AEW resumed touring from July 2021) there might be a lot of people appearing on both ROH and Impact as well as whatever indies are left. Ironically, this might lead to an attempt to sell-out a 10,000 seat arena for an indie PPV with the biggest surviving US companies all involved.

Then, the timeline corrects itself.

I think the push/pull factors that led to the creation of AEW and their TV deal will still be there even with it delayed by nearly three years. Three years, with many of the top original AEW acts now having national television exposure on WWE, with a flooded market of incredible talent from WWE cuts, without the pandemic to derail its early momentum. It'd be a different beast, but I'd still expect a competitor to emerge.

 

[Qaz_plm]

You almost need the OTL cattle prod to recognise how much better DDP winning at Halloween Havoc would have been.

Incidentally, I saw a snippet of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit in a bar and noticed Bill Goldberg. I have to give the cop that brings him down credit for knowing he is vulnerable to electrical attacks.

​

Recently learned that Goldberg -besides the before mentioned DDP- wanted the late great Bobby Eaton to be the one who broke his streak which definitely would have been a certified WCW moment

 

[Coiler]

Strange question: What if the talked-about plans to have legendary legit wrestling star Alexander Karelin join the pro wrestling circuit actually came to fruition?

 

[Qaz_plm]

Strange question: What if the talked-about plans to have legendary legit wrestling star Alexander Karelin join the pro wrestling circuit actually came to fruition?

Let's say Uncle Eric puts his pride to the side for a sec and Karelin trains with the Gagnes(He didn't want to train with anyone else) Bringing him in during the tail end of Hogan's face run and with a unbeaten streak similar to Goldberg's. Greg Gagne planned a three match series with Hogan,starting at The Great American Bash; where I think Hogan would break the streak and Karelin would challenge him to another match. This would lead into a planned PPV in Yeltsin era Russia ( I assume Karelin would be the hometown babyface) and end at Starrcade '97. Obliviously huge changes to WCW and wrestling in general.

 

[RyanF]

Have begun something that might be of interest to fans of this thread.

 

[RyanF]

Lance Storm clears the air on his status as a POD.

​

 

[Christian]

Not exactly a POD, but I remember reading a story where Ricky Steamboat replaces Hogan as the mega star of the 80s, and I’m wondering, is that actually possible?

Could Ricky Steamboat have the marketability and charisma of Hulk Hogan that he could reach similar heights? He had great ability, but I have my doubts the WWF could have been as big as it is if he was at the helm of the ship.

 

[AH Layard]

I doubt it, a big attraction of Hogan was his interview. Also, McMahon had a preference for big muscular men and would prob want his main event talent to wrestle a certain style. Steamboat was one of the greatest wrestlers of all time but McMahon wanted to move to wrestling as spectacle.

Alternatives could be Paul Orndorff, Roddy Piper, The Junkyard Dog, Kerry von Erich, Jimmy Snuka, Tony Atlas - but like Steamboat none of them would have probably had the advantages that Hogan had.

 

[Coiler]

Another one: What if the Undertaker Streak never really happens? Bonus question if it ends in a good fashion (to the thematically appropriate Kane in a well done match) or a bad one (They just have him lose cleanly to lummox Giant Gonzales).

 

[JesterBL]

How would one arrive at a world where sumo wrestling in Japan and worldwide includes weight classes?

Background for those who may be unfamiliar: sumo wrestling as practiced in Japan (which is the only professional sumo wrestling in the world) does not use weight classes, while sumo wrestling outside of Japan (which is all amateur but attempting to gain recognition as a real sport, very minor in size and participation) does use weight classes. Sumo wrestlers in Japan were not always as big as modern sumo wrestlers- they only really start to get huge after WW2 and a lot of the pre-WW2 sumo wrestlers would have a hard time in the modern meta as a result. Weight classes would be one really obvious solution to that trend and have been adopted in international variants of the sport.

Sumo, along with a lot of Japan's other national sports, is particularly hidebound and still tends to reject most modern sports science and the treatment of sumo wrestlers has been a focus in recent years (also the integrity of the sport, famously confronted by Freakonomics although they presented it as a weird uniquely Japanese thing rather than a product of rulesets that reward that kind of thing, similar to pre-WW2 fencing).

My personal favorite way to get there is either for Imperial Japan to win in WW2 or a WW2 analogue or to get a negotiated peace i.e. avoiding the American occupation and the hardening of such things as Sumo and Kendo in the post-WW2 era as nationalist expressions of Japanese identity. I imagine avoiding WW2 in China/the Pacific as we know it could have a similar impact.

Thoughts/interest? My apologies if this isn't the thread for it.

 

[Qaz_plm]

Another one: What if the Undertaker Streak never really happens? Bonus question if it ends in a good fashion (to the thematically appropriate Kane in a well done match) or a bad one (They just have him lose cleanly to lummox Giant Gonzales).

Imagine if they waited a few years and had Roman Reigns break it. The Boos would be deafening

Thoughts/interest? My apologies if this isn't the thread for it.

Oh no you're fine and this is very interesting

 

[Neoteros]

What if André the Giant went under the knife to minimize the consequences of acromegaly? He refused to do so in OTL but, if he did, not only would he have had a much longer career and lifespan, but his wrestling style would've been much more technical - as his early bouts in France showed. Sure, Vince McMahon will probably try to mold him into a brutal force of nature anyway, but it's his later career and behind the scenes impact that would be interesting.

Had he stayed in the WWF by the mid-1990s, the possibility of him mentoring Chyna (another person that grew up in rather depressing circumstances, with self-esteem and self-image issues the size of a black hole) rather than Triple H might be an interesting POD, not to mention how he would've despised the edgier nature of the WWF around that time, since not only was he marketed as a family-friendly gentle giant, he kind of (he did have his asshole tendencies) was one too, dude loved his Princess Bride gig.

In fact, quitting the WWF in disgust by the late 1990s and going into acting, he could've done that - hell, he would've made a good Hagrid.

 

[Geordie]

The Fingerpoke of Doom is considered a pivotal moment in wrestling history. After the success of the first two Wrestlemania events, Hulk Hogan and Vince McMahon looked set to conquer the professional wrestling landscape. McMahon's WWF were eating up smaller promotions, in terms of television slots, wrestling talent and audience interest. Celebrity appearances at WWF events had brought the Federation more mainstream appeal than ever before.

Then came the Fingerpoke. Nobody can quite agree on what happened that night. Wrestling in the eighties was a toxic cocktail of egomania, machismo and substance abuse. Between misremembering, tales that grew in the telling and outright lies, the whole truth will likely never come out. It might have been a rib gone wrong, a disagreement over payment, or something else entirely. What is agreed on is that a discussion between McMahon and Hogan became heated. Words became angrier, more insulting and louder, until the Hogan poked McMahon in the chest with his index finger. The You finger. McMahon was always known to be a mercurial man. This is, after all, a man who despises sneezing. And pronouns. And scarves. On another night, the promotor might have laughed, or sold the poke. But this night, he went ballistic.

By the time the dust had settled, Hogan had walked out, with McMahon vowing that he'd never work with him again. The Hulkster went to Japan to allow himself to weigh up his next moves in the US, leaving the WWF to frantically change both long and short term booking plans. This is what led to Mr Wonderful Paul Orndorff first grabbing the title, then setting his sights on the beloved figure of Andre the Giant. When the Giant answered the mocking challenge, he was tied in the ropes and attacked, a ruse to disguise the fact that his broken body couldn't really cope with bumps any more. As the commentators begged for somebody, anybody, to intervene, help arrived from a most unlooked for source. The Macho Man, Randy Savage, beat Orndorrf to the canvas, laid out Jimmy Hart with his own megaphone, then released Andre. As Pomp & Circumstance blared out, Savage delivered his patented elbow drop before Andre rolled Ordorff out of the ring, raising his saviour's hand as they were joined by Miss Elizabeth. This instantly turned Savage into a babyface, elevated him to the top of the card and set up the main event for Wrestlemania III. There are persistent rumours that Andre was due to face Hogan in the Wrestlemania that was planned before everything "went sideways", to quote Pat Patterson, but this fails to take into account both Andre's physical breakdown and the fact that he was adored by fans. Surely Orndorff - Hogan is the obvious match.

Then came the name. In the buildup to the big night Savage delivered one of his trademark promos, filled with fire, intensity, and metaphor. Halfway through, he pointed at the camera, as his bass voice growled out, as if washed through pebbles for decades: "At Wrestlemania, with Andre and Elizabeth looking on, I'm going to became the World Champion. Not even the Fingerpoke of Doom could stop me." For most fans, this was just a line that sounded cool when Savage said it, but made very little sense when scrutinised without his idiosyncratic delivery. To the boys in the back who had had enough of Hogan, it raised a wry smile.

Since then, it's never been referred to as anything else.