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Yokai Man’s Test Thread Thing

@Time Enough @Walpurgisnacht @AH Layard

Had an Idea and wondered if these choices made sense:

Changes in the Third Wilson Ministry (19 July 1966-18 June 1970) after the July “Plot” :

Deputy Prime Minister and Chancellor: Ted Short replaces George Brown and James Callaghan respectively

Home Secretary: Merlyn Rees replaces Roy Jenkins

Minister for Housing and Local Government: Bob Mellish replaces Richard Crossland

Minister for Transport: Walter Harrison replaces Barbara Castle

Secretary of State for Education and Science: David Owen replaces Anthony Crosland

Minister of Overseas Development: Richard Marsh replaces Anthony Greenwood

Minister of Technology: John Stonehouse replaces Tony Benn
 
Yokai Man said:
Home Secretary: Merlyn Rees replaces Roy Jenkins
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This seems to happen in our timeline too
Yokai Man said:
Minister of Technology: John Stonehouse replaces Tony Benn
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Your friendly StB agent in London liked that

Other than these two specific opinions, all the replacements seems to be Wilson loyalists, which is either good or bad for the Labour.
 
That’s quite a few prominent Labour grandees getting the chop, you have to wonder how long Wilson would survive in that scenario. Both soft left and social democratic right no longer represented.

OTL Merlyn Rees rose up the ranks to a large degree because he was an ally of Callaghan.

David Owen was only elected to Parliament in 1966 and was 28 at the time.

If Healey is still around then probably would make more sense for him to become ChX. Is Shirley Williams also out?
 
AH Layard said:
That’s quite a few prominent Labour grandees getting the chop, you have to wonder how long Wilson would survive in that scenario. Both soft left and social democratic right no longer represented.

OTL Merlyn Rees rose up the ranks to a large degree because he was an ally of Callaghan.

David Owen was only elected to Parliament in 1966 and was 28 at the time.

If Healey is still around then probably would make more sense for him to become ChX. Is Shirley Williams also out?
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No but only due to ‘arold forgetting about her.

I thought it would have made sense in this scenario (Brown doesn’t change his mind and resigns on 19 July 1966,making the rumors of him wanting to coup Wilson seem more legitimate and,due to Marcia being out of action due to stomach problems,‘arold is more paranoid and thinks all people mentioned above are plotters) since he would want someone more reliable and loyal as second in command and Ted fitted that role perfectly.

Owen’s rise is more to ’arold wanting someone inexperienced and easy to control in the Cabinet if he can’t get true loyalists.

Who would make sense as a Jenkins replacement then and who is also a strong Wilson loyalist?
 
I think even in the depths of Harold’s paranoia, Barbara Castle wasn’t going to tossed aside I think, she was seen as good at her job and stuck with Harold so there’s that.

I feel like Richard Crossman would probably get a prominent position over per se Ted Short or Merlyn Rees, Crossman had been with Wilson for a long time and again, was a competent (if incredibly egotistical) Minister in his time. Maybe Crossman as Home Sec or Chancellor etc.

Oh also, maybe John Silkin gets a more prominent position, till 1970ish he was seen as a rather bland party loyalist (before entering opposition and declaring his support for Tribune etc.)
 
Time Enough said:
I think even in the depths of Harold’s paranoia, Barbara Castle wasn’t going to tossed aside I think, she was seen as good at her job and stuck with Harold so there’s that.

I feel like Richard Crossman would probably get a prominent position over per se Ted Short or Merlyn Rees, Crossman had been with Wilson for a long time and again, was a competent (if incredibly egotistical) Minister in his time. Maybe Crossman as Home Sec or Chancellor etc.

Oh also, maybe John Silkin gets a more prominent position, till 1970ish he was seen as a rather bland party loyalist (before entering opposition and declaring his support for Tribune etc.)
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Again,it made sense in his mind-Brown not changing his mind,along with Marcia being out of action,means that Harold listens more to the rumors,which did include Crossman and Castle as "plotting". Think Night of the Long Knives-same accidental events getting out of hand.

You're right,Silkin is a better choice as loyal HomeSec. How would he fare?
 
Yokai Man said:
Again,it made sense in his mind-Brown not changing his mind,along with Marcia being out of action,means that Harold listens more to the rumors,which did include Crossman and Castle as "plotting". Think Night of the Long Knives-same accidental events getting out of hand.
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Ah okay, well go forth if that’s the case.
Yokai Man said:
You're right,Silkin is a better choice as loyal HomeSec. How would he fare?
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Fine, by all accounts he was a competent and well intentioned figure as a Cabinet member, though I do think he would handle Northern Ireland worse than Callaghan given that Callaghan’s heritage and personality made him able to speak to both sides frankly.
 
Time Enough said:
Ah okay, well go forth if that’s the case.

Fine, by all accounts he was a competent and well intentioned figure as a Cabinet member, though I do think he would handle Northern Ireland worse than Callaghan given that Callaghan’s heritage and personality made him able to speak to both sides frankly.
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By Castle’s own account,by autumn 1966 Harold already lost it,ranting to her that they were all Judases and if he ever found out she was anywhere near Callaghan or Woy during his visit in Moscow he would demand her resignation and personally destroy her political career. He kept threatening and accusing anyone who was anyone in the Cabinet of wanting to put Sunny Jim and Woy as PM and Chancellor and forming a coalition government with the Liberals and Tory Rebels.

In fact,a massive problem of the 1966-1970 Wilson Government was that everyone,due to Harold plotting against them,started forming their cabals simply because everyone else was already doing. By 1968 everyone in the Cabinet openly loathed each other and preferred giving Ted Heath Number 10 than live one more fucking minute in their company.
 
@Time Enough An interesting PoD you might like: the only real reason Victor Feather,by his own account,was against In Place of Strife was because Barbara Castle elbowed him in 1931 out of a reporting assignment at the Labour Party conference and thus loathed her because she had the career he wanted politically.

One can easily see Feather having Castle’s career and actually achieving to sorta kinda maybe implement In Place in Strife-but only to the TUC because it was the only trade union that didn’t 1000% oppose it.
 
Yokai Man said:
@Gorrister If somehow O’Neill,Craig and Brian were all narrowly unseated in ‘69,who would lead the Ulster Unionists afterwards?
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Chichester-Clark, as OTL. :p

Seriously though, from a brief skim Jack Andrews (son of J. M. Andrews) was the other mooted candidate. Outside him, depending on the circumstances you could have the likes of Robert Porter (moderate) and William Long (more conservative but not extreme).
 
Gorrister said:
Chichester-Clark, as OTL. :p

Seriously though, from a brief skim Jack Andrews (son of J. M. Andrews) was the other mooted candidate. Outside him, depending on the circumstances you could have the likes of Robert Porter (moderate) and William Long (more conservative but not extreme).
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How would Andrews fare?
 
Yokai Man said:
How would Andrews fare?
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Well, by that point it's a touch too late to prevent things from kicking off or stop Wilson from sending the troops in. Furthermore, given his political stance as a moderate (he ended up with Faulkner's UPNI), his time in office may spur the extreme end of unionism even further than OTL. Not sure if he backed the introduction of internment, if not then that has some interesting ramifications. But yeah it will be very difficult to avoid Stormont's suspension.
 
@Time Enough @Walpurgisnacht @Meppo @SultanArda

Sorry this took so long,personal problems but here is half of what I promised:



Who Runs Romania?


1991-1992 Nicușor Ceaușescu

fall of Communism,gradual establishment of the Republic of Romania

Presidents of Romania

1992-1996 Dumitru Mazilu (Romanian Social Front)
1992 First Round def: Ion Traian Ștefănescu (PPR),Dan Amedeo Lăzărescu-replacing Radu Câmpeanu (PNL),Ion Rațiu (PNȚCD)
1992 Second Round def: Ion Traian Ștefănescu (PPR)
1992: PPR [418],PNL [50],FSR [36],PNȚCD [18]

1996-2000 Ion Diaconescu (Democratic National Coalition,PNȚCD-Ion Diaconescu)
1996 First Round def: Ion Traian Ștefănescu (PPSR),Petre Roman (FSR),Victor Atanasie Stănculescu (PNDR),Corneliu Vadim Tudor (PRM)
1996 Second Round def: Ion Traian Ștefănescu (PPSR)
1996: CND [197],PPSR [117],PNDR [108],FSR [41],PRM [29],PNL 2000 [28]

2000-2008 Petre Roman (Romanian Social Front)
2000 First Round def: Ion Cristoiu (PPSR),Gheorghe Funar (PNDR),Corneliu Vadim Tudor (PRM),Călin Popescu-Tăriceanu (PNL 2000)
2000 Second Round def: Ion Cristoiu (PPSR)
2000: PPSR [178],PNDR [170],PRM [87],FSR [85]
2004 First Round def: Ion Cristoiu (PPSR),Gheorghe Funar (PNDR),Corneliu Vadim Tudor (PRM),Mona Muscă (URR)
2004 Second Round def: Ion Cristoiu (PPSR)
2004: PPSR [190],PNDR [190],FSR [116],URR [24]

2008-2012 Mircea Chelaru (National Democratic Romanian Party)
2008 First Round def: Ion Cristoiu (PPSR),Mona Muscă (URR),Adrian Fetecău (Independent),Radu Berceanu (FSR)
2008 Second Round def: Ion Cristoiu (PPSR)
2008: PNDR [246],PPSR [140],URR [117],FSR [19]

2012-2016 Remus Cernea (Rebuilding Romania Union)
2012 First Round def: Mihai Tatulici (PPSR),Eugen Bădălan (PNDR),Ion Iliescu (FSR)
2012 Second Round def: Mihai Tatulici (PPSR)
2012: URR [250],PPSR [172],PNDR [100]

2016-2020 Călin Georgescu (Romanian People’s Salvation Party,National Patriots Alliance)
2016 First Round def: Remus Cernea (URR),Alex Mihai Stoenescu (UNUP),Emil Străinu (PNDR-Emil Străinu)
2016 Second Round def: Remus Cernea (URR),
2016: ANP [250],URR [206],UNUP [22],PNDR-Emil Străinu [22]

2020-2021 Niculae Spiroiu (National Democratic Romanian Party,National Patriots Alliance)
2020 First Round def: Teo Trandafir (URR),Gheorghe Piperea (UNUP),Emil Străinu (PNDR-Emil Străinu)
2020 Second Round def: Teo Trandafir (URR)
2020: ANP [227],URR [227],UNUP [24],PNDR-Emil Străinu [24]

2021-2021 Marcel Ciolacu (Romanian People’s Salvation Party,interim President)

2021-present day Rovana Plumb (Romanian People’s Salvation Party,National Patriots Alliance)
2021 First Round def: Teo Trandafir (URR),Gheorghe Piperea (UNUP),Emil Străinu (PNDR-Emil Străinu
2021 Second Round def: Teo Trandafir (URR)

Will add footnotes later when possible on the Lists thread.
 
The Odd Rebirth of the Post War Consensus

1979-1981 Margaret Thatcher (Conservative Minority with Ulster Unionist support and confidence)
1979: Margaret Thatcher-Conservative [314],James Callaghan-Labour [287],David Steel-Liberal [11],William Wolfe-SNP [7]

1981-1982 Denis Healey (Labour Majority)
1981: Denis Healey-Labour [340],Margaret Thatcher-Conservative [261],David Steel-Liberal [11],Douglas Henderson-SNP [10]

1982-1992 Eric Varley (Labour Majority)
1986: Eric Varley-Labour [361],William Whitelaw-Conservative [245],Douglas Henderson-SNP [13],David Steel-Liberal [13]
1991: Eric Varley-Labour [344],Michael Heseltine-Conservative [265],Alec Salmond-SNP [17],David Penhaligon-Liberal [16]

1992-1996 Tom McNally (Labour Majority)
 
Yokai Man said:
1982-1992 Eric Varley (Labour Majority)
1986: Eric Varley-Labour [361],William Whitelaw-Conservative [245],Douglas Henderson-SNP [13],David Steel-Liberal [13]
1991: Eric Varley-Labour [344],Michael Heseltine-Conservative [265],Alec Salmond-SNP [17],David Penhaligon-Liberal [16]
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Varley is interesting because he did pursue a moderate course as it were, supporting some neoliberal reforms and monetary positions. So he wouldn’t carry on the post war consensus exactly, and instead something similar to Australia.
 
Time Enough said:
Varley is interesting because he did pursue a moderate course as it were, supporting some neoliberal reforms and monetary positions. So he wouldn’t carry on the post war consensus exactly, and instead something similar to Australia.
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Oh yes but no one necessarily notices TTL so the narrative is that the post war consensus still lives but in a different form.

Another thing to note in my spin to the “Later 1979 Election” classic scenario is that not only is the Scottish Assembly a thing since 1979 but the SNP remains strong-ish,leading to them being more prominent in the public eye earlier than OTL.

Also Frank Maguire loses his seat and thus Sinn Fein doesn’t start participating in elections as they did since 1981,leading to the IIP surviving.
 
@Time Enough


When It Falls Down

1972-1972 Giulio Andreotti (DC Minority)
1972: Arnaldo Forlani-DC (214),Enrico Berlinguer-PCI (205),Francesco De Martino-PSI (78),Giorgio Almirante-MSI (59),Mauro Ferri-PSDI (33),Ugo La Malfa-PRI (21),
Giovanni Malagodi-PLI (17)

1972-1976 Amintore Fanfani (DC-PSI-PSDI-PRI Coalition)
1976: Enrico Berlinguer-PCI (264),Benigno Zaccagnini-DC (208),Francesco De Martino-PSI (68),Giorgio Almirante-MSI (38),Oddo Biasini-PRI (21),Pier Luigi Romita-PSDI (16),Mario Capanna-DP (6),Marco Pannella-PR (5)


1972-1973 Kakuei Tanaka (LDP Majority,LDP Minority by 1972)
1972: Kakuei Tanaka-LDP (210),Tomori Narita-JSP (175),Kenji Miyamoto-JCP (60),Yoshikatsu Takeiri-Kōmeitō (28),Kasuga Ikkō-DSJP (18)

1973-1976 Tomori Narita (JSP Minority with JCP and DSJP support and confidence)



1972-1976 Robert Stanfield (Progressive Conservative Minority)
1972: Robert Stanfield-Progressive Conservative (116),Pierre Trudeau-Liberal (95),David Lewis-NDP (35),Réal Caouette-Social Credit (18)


1973-1974 Sargent Shriver/Wilbur Mills (Democratic)
1972 def: Richard Nixon/Spiro Agnew (Republican),George Wallace/Harland Sanders (AIP)

1974-19xx Sargent Shriver/Walter Mondale (Democratic)


My version of the “Bretton-Woods Collapse Causes A 2008 like Global Reccesion“ scenario.
 
@Time Enough

Breakdown

1970-1973 Edward Heath (Conservative Majority)
1970: Edward Heath-Conservative [330],Harold Wilson-Labour [288],Jeremy Thorpe-Liberal [6]

1973-1974 Peter Carrington,6th Baron Carrington (Conservative Majority,Conservative Minority)
1974: Peter Carrington-Conservative [315],Harold Wilson-Labour [281],Jeremy Thorpe-Liberal [15]

1974-1976 William Whitelaw (Conservative-Liberal Coalition)

1976-1979 Jim Prior (Conservative-Liberal Coalition)
 
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