I’m getting to the point with that thread where maybe there does need to be some stylistic conformity - I’m not saying every list has to be the same and some excellent lists are convergent from the “standard” format but I think generally even if not all lists in the Japhy-Mumby style are good, more lists in that style are than in the “I’m not even bolding winners” style. To be blunt the thread looks fucking ugly at the moment, and it didn’t used to; colour schemes and formatting are and have always been part of the list thread’s shtick.
-
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Lists of Heads of Government and Heads of State
- Thread starter Mumby
- Start date
- Location
- Municipal Commune of Bourne
- Pronouns
- He/Him
this is one tasty idea thande
- Location
- Municipal Commune of Bourne
- Pronouns
- He/Him
a proof of concept for lincolnshire in kaiserreich
Land And God
1888-1921: Counties of Holland, Kesteven and Lindsey, County Boroughs of Grimsby and Lincoln, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
1921-1925: Counties of Holland, Kesteven and Lindsey, County Boroughs of Grimsby and Lincoln, Kingdom of Great Britain
1925-1936: County Congress of Lincolnshire, Socialist Union of Britain
Land And God
1888-1921: Counties of Holland, Kesteven and Lindsey, County Boroughs of Grimsby and Lincoln, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
1921-1925: Counties of Holland, Kesteven and Lindsey, County Boroughs of Grimsby and Lincoln, Kingdom of Great Britain
1925-1936: County Congress of Lincolnshire, Socialist Union of Britain
Yes exactly - of course it gets more interesting when you're talking about border places that have been fought over a lot (let me put it this way, I had the idea while in Venice).
edit: huh, the Wikipedians already had the same idea:
Although this could be more detailed, e.g. it misses out that brief WTF moment when it was part of France for, like, a week due to a game of diplomatic musical chairs on Napoleon III's part.
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- Location
- Das Böse ist immer und überall
- Pronouns
- he/him
Surely that was just Lombardy after the 1859 war? Venetia was conquered during the Austro-Prussian war with no French involvement.
Whilst I can sympathise with @Japhy's reluctance to tackle John Milius' opus I am also one of those lefties who doesn't think it's entirely without merit and as such I've decided to have a go at @Aznavour's request:
Die rote Flut
1974-1982: Helmut Schmidt (SPD)
1982-1983: Helmut Kohl (CDU)
1983-1987: Hans Hagen (ALD)
1987-1993: Petra Kelly (ALD)
1993-????: Tobias Tischbier (Die Antwort fur Deutschland '93)
The seventies have been really bad for the west ITTL, partially due to the Oil Crisis of OTL but also due to the islands of Japan collapsing into the sea that same year. The economic impact is already being felt by the time the geological cataclycism has subsided, and sixty million refugees have to find homes. The Eastern Bloc rides out the storm a bit better than the west and the developing world turns to the Soviets with great enthusiasm. Many American hawks react with alarm when Mexico becomes yet another domino but the President is Not-Jerry Ford from Attack of the Killer Tomatoes and nothing is really done about it. By the time Not-Jerry is replaced by not-George McGovern from Superman II there are far too many domestic issues to care about to fight a Cold War, and when not-George in turn is replaced by Ron in '81, America is far weaker than she was ten years beforehand.
The destruction of Japan and the subsequent environmental impact will be felt for decades, and though its crescendo arguably comes in the form of the second Holodomor of 1986, it also gives the youthful Green movement the truly meteoric success it has never really been able to achieve in our world far earlier. Their success is particularly pronounced in West Germany, where the ecological-left Alternative List is already catching up on the CDU when a horrific accident at Ramstein AFB leads to the first nuclear weapon to be detonated on European soil. Support for the German anti-nuclear campaign becomes almost universal overnight and the Alternative List become the first party in the history of the Federal Republic to achieve a majority, although at the time this is overshadowed internationally by the first Jewish leader in German history, and his radical program.
The man who was too left-wing for the DDR is all too happy to listen to voters demands for an end to nuclear weapons on German soil, and uses the momentum to take West Germany out of NATO altogether shortly after. Following the rise of leftist regimes in France and Italy inspired by the Ramstein Disaster the western alliance becomes defunct shortly after. With their talking points about world peace having been largely achieved, the Eastern Bloc is in something of a limbo. Erich Honecker manages to enjoy a genuinely good relationship with Hagen but General Secretary Orlov remains silent to any talk of multilateral disarmament. The powerful albeit frustratingly homicidal leader of the USSR points to Ron's massive military build-up and secretly decides that if the Soviet Union wants to remain Best Superpower then he must find a more comprehensive solution to the arms race. A neutral Western Europe is no longer an end in itself, but merely an advantage.
West Germany grows confident with Hagen's leadership, non-alignment is good for an export focused economy and the prosperity that follows is secured by the expansion of economic democracy and interior investment. Unification itself doesn't seem to be a million miles away on a September morning in 1987 when the Chancellor is woken up by BND agents dragging him into a bunker deep underneath Bonn.
Washington D.C., Kansas City, Lawrence, and other strategic locations are consumed by nuclear fire. Cuban commandos cripple SAC. Soviet paratroops land throughout the South-West, and what had been identified as a joint Cuban-Mexican-Nicaraguan-Soviet war game turns out to be a million strong Comecon army marching through Texas. Before what's left of NORAD can react, every city from Anchorage to Halifax is hit by a second wave of Soviet bombers carrying something more Hirsohima-sized. The Red Army is careful to make sure that the three army groups that cross the Bering Strait won't be glowing in the dark by the time they pass over into the Dakotas. The United States military is beheaded and for all of Ron's best efforts is facing a disparity in numbers of men and the amount of material it can provide for them. In the first few weeks everything goes the Red Army's way and though resistance grows on the northern and southern fronts and behind the lines, by the spring of 1988 and Soviets and her allies have successfully split the United States in two.
The effects outside of the Americas are even worse than when Japan sank; China receives the same fate as Canada and whilst what's left of the politburo pledge a fight to the bitter end, losing 40% of their population overnight leaves them unable to wage any meaningful resistance. Hagen desperately tries to convince Honecker to apply pressure on Orlov with the aim of attaining a ceasefire but the man he had convinced himself could be made to see sense now merely regurgitates the Moscow line about putting an end to American imperialism once and for all. Hagen is left with a failed foreign policy agenda, in the knowledge that his optimism had left him far too naive to see the danger that now threatened to take over the entire world. What Europe really needs is an Iron Lady.
The United Kingdom doesn't desert the United States like the rest of Western Europe, but fighting alone in 1988 is not quite the same option that it was in 1940. Argentina never invaded the Falklands ITTL and the subsequent improvements to the British military have never taken effect. Fighting a Soviet Union that is powerful enough to fight a two-front war on the CONUS, the Royal Navy is quickly broken whilst the RAF is destroyed in a war of attrition. When Orlov makes it clear that the United Kingdom will share the fate of Canada and China if she does not capitulate, a shaken Willie Whitelaw informs a starving and terrified public that the war is over for them.
Petra Kelly takes power shortly after it became clear that Hagen had lost his legitimacy as a peacemaker. She goes out of her way to ensure that West Germany gives every kind of support it can to the United States short of war. Kelly is half-American herself, although she also has the more cynical motivation of making sure that the United States is able to survive the Soviet onslaught long enough to stand on its own two feet once more. Orlov is initially blase about this aid, joking that it will merely mean more West German commodities to collect when the Red Army marches into Philadelphia.
By the end of 1988 the Soviets have taken over a million casualties, the Cuban and Nicaraguan armies have been largely wiped out, and a rabid United States has survived its trial by fire. With European and particularly German assistance it now heavily outnumbers the Comecon forces on American soil and is beginning to contest the air once more. Stalemate gives way to American initiative. The two fronts meet in the emaciated ruins of Denver, before pushing south all the way to Chiapas to link up with the EZLN forces who had never been all that comfortable with the whole "World Domination" aesthetic the Soviets had been marketing.
The Red Army retreats across what had been known as Canada, and sets up fort in Alaska with the knowledge that it will be some time before the equally exhausted Americans can push them out. H.W, having taken over from a long spent Ron, informs them that global thermonuclear war will be the price for the Soviets not going home. Orlov blinks, and Kelly is there to host the peace conference that makes sure the world can go on after the Third World War ends.
Kelly is a hero, both at home and worldwide, but then some Christian Students decide that things would be better if they were in charge in Philadelphia, and in Moscow an alcoholic stands on top of a tank. The German people who previously couldn't think of anyone better to lead them decide that her idea for a Global Marshall Plan isn't worth bankrupting the country when a rundown DDR was finally willing to accept reunification.
Petra Kelly was glorious and she changed the world... and then Tobias Tischbier fucked up the end game.
Die rote Flut
1974-1982: Helmut Schmidt (SPD)
1982-1983: Helmut Kohl (CDU)
1983-1987: Hans Hagen (ALD)
1987-1993: Petra Kelly (ALD)
1993-????: Tobias Tischbier (Die Antwort fur Deutschland '93)
The seventies have been really bad for the west ITTL, partially due to the Oil Crisis of OTL but also due to the islands of Japan collapsing into the sea that same year. The economic impact is already being felt by the time the geological cataclycism has subsided, and sixty million refugees have to find homes. The Eastern Bloc rides out the storm a bit better than the west and the developing world turns to the Soviets with great enthusiasm. Many American hawks react with alarm when Mexico becomes yet another domino but the President is Not-Jerry Ford from Attack of the Killer Tomatoes and nothing is really done about it. By the time Not-Jerry is replaced by not-George McGovern from Superman II there are far too many domestic issues to care about to fight a Cold War, and when not-George in turn is replaced by Ron in '81, America is far weaker than she was ten years beforehand.
The destruction of Japan and the subsequent environmental impact will be felt for decades, and though its crescendo arguably comes in the form of the second Holodomor of 1986, it also gives the youthful Green movement the truly meteoric success it has never really been able to achieve in our world far earlier. Their success is particularly pronounced in West Germany, where the ecological-left Alternative List is already catching up on the CDU when a horrific accident at Ramstein AFB leads to the first nuclear weapon to be detonated on European soil. Support for the German anti-nuclear campaign becomes almost universal overnight and the Alternative List become the first party in the history of the Federal Republic to achieve a majority, although at the time this is overshadowed internationally by the first Jewish leader in German history, and his radical program.
The man who was too left-wing for the DDR is all too happy to listen to voters demands for an end to nuclear weapons on German soil, and uses the momentum to take West Germany out of NATO altogether shortly after. Following the rise of leftist regimes in France and Italy inspired by the Ramstein Disaster the western alliance becomes defunct shortly after. With their talking points about world peace having been largely achieved, the Eastern Bloc is in something of a limbo. Erich Honecker manages to enjoy a genuinely good relationship with Hagen but General Secretary Orlov remains silent to any talk of multilateral disarmament. The powerful albeit frustratingly homicidal leader of the USSR points to Ron's massive military build-up and secretly decides that if the Soviet Union wants to remain Best Superpower then he must find a more comprehensive solution to the arms race. A neutral Western Europe is no longer an end in itself, but merely an advantage.
West Germany grows confident with Hagen's leadership, non-alignment is good for an export focused economy and the prosperity that follows is secured by the expansion of economic democracy and interior investment. Unification itself doesn't seem to be a million miles away on a September morning in 1987 when the Chancellor is woken up by BND agents dragging him into a bunker deep underneath Bonn.
Washington D.C., Kansas City, Lawrence, and other strategic locations are consumed by nuclear fire. Cuban commandos cripple SAC. Soviet paratroops land throughout the South-West, and what had been identified as a joint Cuban-Mexican-Nicaraguan-Soviet war game turns out to be a million strong Comecon army marching through Texas. Before what's left of NORAD can react, every city from Anchorage to Halifax is hit by a second wave of Soviet bombers carrying something more Hirsohima-sized. The Red Army is careful to make sure that the three army groups that cross the Bering Strait won't be glowing in the dark by the time they pass over into the Dakotas. The United States military is beheaded and for all of Ron's best efforts is facing a disparity in numbers of men and the amount of material it can provide for them. In the first few weeks everything goes the Red Army's way and though resistance grows on the northern and southern fronts and behind the lines, by the spring of 1988 and Soviets and her allies have successfully split the United States in two.
The effects outside of the Americas are even worse than when Japan sank; China receives the same fate as Canada and whilst what's left of the politburo pledge a fight to the bitter end, losing 40% of their population overnight leaves them unable to wage any meaningful resistance. Hagen desperately tries to convince Honecker to apply pressure on Orlov with the aim of attaining a ceasefire but the man he had convinced himself could be made to see sense now merely regurgitates the Moscow line about putting an end to American imperialism once and for all. Hagen is left with a failed foreign policy agenda, in the knowledge that his optimism had left him far too naive to see the danger that now threatened to take over the entire world. What Europe really needs is an Iron Lady.
The United Kingdom doesn't desert the United States like the rest of Western Europe, but fighting alone in 1988 is not quite the same option that it was in 1940. Argentina never invaded the Falklands ITTL and the subsequent improvements to the British military have never taken effect. Fighting a Soviet Union that is powerful enough to fight a two-front war on the CONUS, the Royal Navy is quickly broken whilst the RAF is destroyed in a war of attrition. When Orlov makes it clear that the United Kingdom will share the fate of Canada and China if she does not capitulate, a shaken Willie Whitelaw informs a starving and terrified public that the war is over for them.
Petra Kelly takes power shortly after it became clear that Hagen had lost his legitimacy as a peacemaker. She goes out of her way to ensure that West Germany gives every kind of support it can to the United States short of war. Kelly is half-American herself, although she also has the more cynical motivation of making sure that the United States is able to survive the Soviet onslaught long enough to stand on its own two feet once more. Orlov is initially blase about this aid, joking that it will merely mean more West German commodities to collect when the Red Army marches into Philadelphia.
By the end of 1988 the Soviets have taken over a million casualties, the Cuban and Nicaraguan armies have been largely wiped out, and a rabid United States has survived its trial by fire. With European and particularly German assistance it now heavily outnumbers the Comecon forces on American soil and is beginning to contest the air once more. Stalemate gives way to American initiative. The two fronts meet in the emaciated ruins of Denver, before pushing south all the way to Chiapas to link up with the EZLN forces who had never been all that comfortable with the whole "World Domination" aesthetic the Soviets had been marketing.
The Red Army retreats across what had been known as Canada, and sets up fort in Alaska with the knowledge that it will be some time before the equally exhausted Americans can push them out. H.W, having taken over from a long spent Ron, informs them that global thermonuclear war will be the price for the Soviets not going home. Orlov blinks, and Kelly is there to host the peace conference that makes sure the world can go on after the Third World War ends.
Kelly is a hero, both at home and worldwide, but then some Christian Students decide that things would be better if they were in charge in Philadelphia, and in Moscow an alcoholic stands on top of a tank. The German people who previously couldn't think of anyone better to lead them decide that her idea for a Global Marshall Plan isn't worth bankrupting the country when a rundown DDR was finally willing to accept reunification.
Petra Kelly was glorious and she changed the world... and then Tobias Tischbier fucked up the end game.
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- Location
- Albany, NY
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Location
- Das Böse ist immer und überall
- Pronouns
- he/him
Glorious.
The Sea Lion Press colors also look much nicer than the AH.com ones.
Asteroid Miner
Member
- Location
- Mercia
Do you have the names of the threads please?
Lord Caedus
Well-known member
- Location
- Minnesota
Stabbed In The Back, Vietnam-Style
1969-1973: Richard Nixon / Spiro Agnew (Republican)
1968: Hubert Humphrey/Edmund Muskie (Democratic), George Wallace/Curtis LeMay (American Independent)
1972: George McGovern/Sargent Shriver (Democratic)
1973: Richard Nixon (Republican) / (none)
1973-1974: Richard Nixon / Gerald Ford (Republican)
1974: Gerald Ford (Republican) / (none)
1974-1977: Gerald Ford / Nelson Rockefeller (Republican)
1977-1981: Frank Church / Elmo Zumwalt (Democratic)
1976: Ronald Reagan/Richard Schweiker (Republican)
1980: Elliot Richardson/Bob Dole (Republican), Bo Gritz/Pat Buchanan (Freedom)
1981: Elmo Zumwalt (Democratic) / (none)
1981-1989: Elmo Zumwalt / Lloyd Bentsen (Democratic)
1984: George Bush/Al Quie (Republican)
1989-0000: Bo Gritz (Freedom) / Bob Martinez (Republican)
1988: Bo Gritz/James Stockdale (Freedom) def. John Heinz/Bob Martinez (Republican), Lloyd Bentsen/Geraldine Ferraro (Democratic), Jesse Jackson/Frank Lautenberg (Alliance)
The end result of binge-watching Babylon Berlin and remembering there were/are still people who believe in a "stab-in-the-back" myth about Vietnam (i.e. "we would have won if only the politicians and protesters hadn't made us leave!").
Basic outline is that between Watergate and Vietnam, the country throws Nixon's appointed successor out and narrowly sends Frank Church, the man who broke into the national scene by uncovering the CIA's "family jewels", to the White House. Church attempts to get the country to reckon with the numerous structural problems that the twin traumas of Vietnam and Watergate have uncovered about the country, but after winning a narrow re-election campaign in 1980 due to members of the increasingly radicalized right taking enough votes away from the Republicans, he is assassinated by a mentally ill drifter.
His successor is former Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, whose decisive leadership in the aftermath of the Church assassination and fortune to inherit the presidency just as the economy begins a brief uptick mean he wins a decisive re-election in 1984. But on a policy scale, his government can barely pass anything through an increasingly fractured Congress and once the country's economy dives into a deep recession in 1987, the extremes on both left and right break away from the two main parties. The economic devastation in the nation's heartland and the HIV/AIDS epidemic causes voters to abandon the two major parties, especially once they nominate bland and uninspiring candidates for president. The four-way race results in vote-splitting for both parties, and along with suppression of "unreliable" votes in Freedom-heavy areas lead to no party having control of either house of Congress or a majority in the Electoral College. With Republican House members rapidly abandoning the party's nominee, John Heinz, party leaders strike a deal with Freedom Party candidate Bo Gritz: in support for the Republicans throwing their weight behind Gritz instead of Vice President Lloyd Bentsen (the Democratic nominee), the Freedomites will have to unanimously back Republican vice presidential candidate Bob Martinez and give Republican party leaders a veto over cabinet and judicial appointments. Gritz accepts and on January 20, 1989, a new era of American history begins...
1969-1973: Richard Nixon / Spiro Agnew (Republican)
1968: Hubert Humphrey/Edmund Muskie (Democratic), George Wallace/Curtis LeMay (American Independent)
1972: George McGovern/Sargent Shriver (Democratic)
1973: Richard Nixon (Republican) / (none)
1973-1974: Richard Nixon / Gerald Ford (Republican)
1974: Gerald Ford (Republican) / (none)
1974-1977: Gerald Ford / Nelson Rockefeller (Republican)
1977-1981: Frank Church / Elmo Zumwalt (Democratic)
1976: Ronald Reagan/Richard Schweiker (Republican)
1980: Elliot Richardson/Bob Dole (Republican), Bo Gritz/Pat Buchanan (Freedom)
1981: Elmo Zumwalt (Democratic) / (none)
1981-1989: Elmo Zumwalt / Lloyd Bentsen (Democratic)
1984: George Bush/Al Quie (Republican)
1989-0000: Bo Gritz (Freedom) / Bob Martinez (Republican)
1988: Bo Gritz/James Stockdale (Freedom) def. John Heinz/Bob Martinez (Republican), Lloyd Bentsen/Geraldine Ferraro (Democratic), Jesse Jackson/Frank Lautenberg (Alliance)
The end result of binge-watching Babylon Berlin and remembering there were/are still people who believe in a "stab-in-the-back" myth about Vietnam (i.e. "we would have won if only the politicians and protesters hadn't made us leave!").
Basic outline is that between Watergate and Vietnam, the country throws Nixon's appointed successor out and narrowly sends Frank Church, the man who broke into the national scene by uncovering the CIA's "family jewels", to the White House. Church attempts to get the country to reckon with the numerous structural problems that the twin traumas of Vietnam and Watergate have uncovered about the country, but after winning a narrow re-election campaign in 1980 due to members of the increasingly radicalized right taking enough votes away from the Republicans, he is assassinated by a mentally ill drifter.
His successor is former Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, whose decisive leadership in the aftermath of the Church assassination and fortune to inherit the presidency just as the economy begins a brief uptick mean he wins a decisive re-election in 1984. But on a policy scale, his government can barely pass anything through an increasingly fractured Congress and once the country's economy dives into a deep recession in 1987, the extremes on both left and right break away from the two main parties. The economic devastation in the nation's heartland and the HIV/AIDS epidemic causes voters to abandon the two major parties, especially once they nominate bland and uninspiring candidates for president. The four-way race results in vote-splitting for both parties, and along with suppression of "unreliable" votes in Freedom-heavy areas lead to no party having control of either house of Congress or a majority in the Electoral College. With Republican House members rapidly abandoning the party's nominee, John Heinz, party leaders strike a deal with Freedom Party candidate Bo Gritz: in support for the Republicans throwing their weight behind Gritz instead of Vice President Lloyd Bentsen (the Democratic nominee), the Freedomites will have to unanimously back Republican vice presidential candidate Bob Martinez and give Republican party leaders a veto over cabinet and judicial appointments. Gritz accepts and on January 20, 1989, a new era of American history begins...
- Location
- Grittysborough
- Pronouns
- he/him
King in Prussia and Archchamberlain of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, the Prince-Elector of Brandenburg (1701-1782)
1701-1713: Frederick I
1713-1740: Frederick William I
1740-1782: Frederick II
King of Prussia and Archchamberlain of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, the Prince-Elector of Brandenburg (1782-1806)
1782-1786: Frederick II
1786-1797: Frederick William II
1797-1806: Frederick William III
King of Prussia (1806-1919)
1806-1840: Frederick William III
1840-1861: Frederick William IV
1861-1888: Frederick III
1888-1919: William
King/Queen in Germany and of Prussia (1919-present)
1919-1941: William
1941-1951: Frederick IV
1951-2009: Felicity
2009-0000: Frederick V
President of the German Union, King/Queen in Germany and of [X] (1919-present)
1919-1941: William, King of Prussia
1941-1965: Pauline, Queen of Wurttemberg
1965-1968: Frederick Christian II, King of Saxony
1968-2009: Felicity, Queen of Prussia
2009-2012: Maria Emanuel, King of Saxony
2012-0000: Ernest Augustus V, King of Hanover
I don’t have detailed footnotes for this one, yet, but it’s a vague idea I had after thinking about how Frederick III of Germany came up in another thread, and how he’s generally used for wish fulfillment of various means if he gets a long reign after his father’s death. I decided to take this in another direction; his father dies before he even comes to the throne, and the young, liberal Frederick III takes the throne after being his uncle’s regent, ruling alongside his liberal wife, the former Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom — and in full control of the upbringing of his own son, unlike OTL.
German unification takes a dramatically different path, with the “German Union”, a liberal, constitutional union of monarchies, forming in the aftermath of *World War I, with the monarch being the President of the German Union, instead of a directly hereditary Emperor. Under the German Union, the President of the German Union appoints the Union Chancellor, though they must have the confidence of the Union Diet, and is the First Among Equals of the so-called “Kings in Germany” and head of the German royalty and nobility. The presidency rotates to the most senior, that is, the longest-reigning of the five Kings in Germany: Bavaria, Hanover, Prussia, Saxony and Wurttemberg.
1701-1713: Frederick I
1713-1740: Frederick William I
1740-1782: Frederick II
King of Prussia and Archchamberlain of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, the Prince-Elector of Brandenburg (1782-1806)
1782-1786: Frederick II
1786-1797: Frederick William II
1797-1806: Frederick William III
King of Prussia (1806-1919)
1806-1840: Frederick William III
1840-1861: Frederick William IV
1861-1888: Frederick III
1888-1919: William
King/Queen in Germany and of Prussia (1919-present)
1919-1941: William
1941-1951: Frederick IV
1951-2009: Felicity
2009-0000: Frederick V
President of the German Union, King/Queen in Germany and of [X] (1919-present)
1919-1941: William, King of Prussia
1941-1965: Pauline, Queen of Wurttemberg
1965-1968: Frederick Christian II, King of Saxony
1968-2009: Felicity, Queen of Prussia
2009-2012: Maria Emanuel, King of Saxony
2012-0000: Ernest Augustus V, King of Hanover
I don’t have detailed footnotes for this one, yet, but it’s a vague idea I had after thinking about how Frederick III of Germany came up in another thread, and how he’s generally used for wish fulfillment of various means if he gets a long reign after his father’s death. I decided to take this in another direction; his father dies before he even comes to the throne, and the young, liberal Frederick III takes the throne after being his uncle’s regent, ruling alongside his liberal wife, the former Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom — and in full control of the upbringing of his own son, unlike OTL.
German unification takes a dramatically different path, with the “German Union”, a liberal, constitutional union of monarchies, forming in the aftermath of *World War I, with the monarch being the President of the German Union, instead of a directly hereditary Emperor. Under the German Union, the President of the German Union appoints the Union Chancellor, though they must have the confidence of the Union Diet, and is the First Among Equals of the so-called “Kings in Germany” and head of the German royalty and nobility. The presidency rotates to the most senior, that is, the longest-reigning of the five Kings in Germany: Bavaria, Hanover, Prussia, Saxony and Wurttemberg.
Last edited:
- Location
- Albany, NY
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Cain and Bobby, Jack and Able (Jeb! vs George) v 0.1
2001-2005: George W. Bush / Richard B. Cheney (Republican)
2009-2013: Hillary R. Clinton / William B. Richardson III (Democratic)
Found this going though my notes as part of my latest big organization. Being as several people on this site found the initial premise interesting back in 2015/2016 I figured I'd share it.
The basic premise is that Jeb(!) and George Bush both win the 1994 Gubernatorial races they were in as opposed to the usual silly bit of AH duality that has people who want Jeb(!) to win in Florida somehow have W. fail, never mind that thats a second point of divergence. The result of this was that the party establishment, for poorly developed reasoning wraps itself around George still in 1998/99 and Jeb(!) in a fit of rage, disdain and biblical drama jumps into the race himself challenging his brother. At that point I suspended the TL because I didn't feel comfortable writing it as the primaries were starting, and then soon enough "Please Clap" entered the lexicon and Jeb(!) was shown to be to be well, himself. 16 years of hype faded off and now he is a twitter based gadfly showing that at the very least my grand plans weren't really in line with his character.
The basic idea was from that point on that Jeb(!) would stay in the race, constantly nipping at George's heels while McCain was deprived of media oxygen and had to drop out after a failure in New Hampshire. Jeb(!) would run as the moderate while George would have to follow him towards the center. Newt Gingrich and a few other people would try to take advantage of this but in the end George would prevail. Reconciliation would involve Jeb(!) joining the cabinet after Gore loses. Jeb(!) cuts a dramatic figure in the initial months of the administration and then 9/11 happens. The story would have become rather Machiavellian with Jeb(!) getting up to his neck in the shadowy shit that was going on at the time in the government. He would also have a running battle going on with Karl Rove who he (IOTL) hates. His machinations would come to a head as he (somehow) would turn Cheney and Rumsfeld against each other, for chaos' sake. Cheney is forced out. And Jeb(!) moves over to become Secretary of State in the second term. But as some sort of terrible Frank Underwood type character, would then take full advantage of Rumsfeld's reputation being dragged in the mud when the full extent of what was going on at Abu Ghraib came out and helping see him forced out of office. Here his dreams were supposed to fall apart for him, as W. and literally everyone else recognizes that a Bush/Bush administration is a terrible idea that wont fly.
At that point Jeb(!) would resign from the cabinet and start writing books. The epilogue was supposed to take place in 2016, where he has basically isolated himself from his brother and his father. In 2012 he was able to manage the nomination and failed and four years later has managed to Stevenson himself a second shot, that also fails. The happy ending of the thing being that after he has conceded W. calls him and they actually talk, which was meant to be a flat circle sort of deal, the story having started with Jeb(!) calling George in 1994 the night they both got elected.
Overall too romantic, and bought too much into the Pre-Donald Trump image of what Jeb(!) was. But, I may go back to it. It would just have to go in a very different direction.
2001-2005: George W. Bush / Richard B. Cheney (Republican)
2000: Albert A. Gore, Jr. / Joseph I. Lieberman (Democratic)
2005-2006: George W. Bush / Donald H. Rumsfeld (Republican)2004: Howard B. Dean III / Johnny R. Edwards (Democratic)
2006-2009: George W. Bush / George E. Pataki (Republican)2009-2013: Hillary R. Clinton / William B. Richardson III (Democratic)
2008: W. Mitt Romney / Condoleezza Rice (Republican)
2013-2017: Hillary R. Clinton / Barack H. Obama (Democratic)2012: John E. Bush / Richard J. Santorum (Republican)
2017-2021: Barack H. Obama / Gabrielle D. Giffords (Democratic)2016: John E. Bush / Susana M. Martinez (Republican)
Found this going though my notes as part of my latest big organization. Being as several people on this site found the initial premise interesting back in 2015/2016 I figured I'd share it.
The basic premise is that Jeb(!) and George Bush both win the 1994 Gubernatorial races they were in as opposed to the usual silly bit of AH duality that has people who want Jeb(!) to win in Florida somehow have W. fail, never mind that thats a second point of divergence. The result of this was that the party establishment, for poorly developed reasoning wraps itself around George still in 1998/99 and Jeb(!) in a fit of rage, disdain and biblical drama jumps into the race himself challenging his brother. At that point I suspended the TL because I didn't feel comfortable writing it as the primaries were starting, and then soon enough "Please Clap" entered the lexicon and Jeb(!) was shown to be to be well, himself. 16 years of hype faded off and now he is a twitter based gadfly showing that at the very least my grand plans weren't really in line with his character.
The basic idea was from that point on that Jeb(!) would stay in the race, constantly nipping at George's heels while McCain was deprived of media oxygen and had to drop out after a failure in New Hampshire. Jeb(!) would run as the moderate while George would have to follow him towards the center. Newt Gingrich and a few other people would try to take advantage of this but in the end George would prevail. Reconciliation would involve Jeb(!) joining the cabinet after Gore loses. Jeb(!) cuts a dramatic figure in the initial months of the administration and then 9/11 happens. The story would have become rather Machiavellian with Jeb(!) getting up to his neck in the shadowy shit that was going on at the time in the government. He would also have a running battle going on with Karl Rove who he (IOTL) hates. His machinations would come to a head as he (somehow) would turn Cheney and Rumsfeld against each other, for chaos' sake. Cheney is forced out. And Jeb(!) moves over to become Secretary of State in the second term. But as some sort of terrible Frank Underwood type character, would then take full advantage of Rumsfeld's reputation being dragged in the mud when the full extent of what was going on at Abu Ghraib came out and helping see him forced out of office. Here his dreams were supposed to fall apart for him, as W. and literally everyone else recognizes that a Bush/Bush administration is a terrible idea that wont fly.
At that point Jeb(!) would resign from the cabinet and start writing books. The epilogue was supposed to take place in 2016, where he has basically isolated himself from his brother and his father. In 2012 he was able to manage the nomination and failed and four years later has managed to Stevenson himself a second shot, that also fails. The happy ending of the thing being that after he has conceded W. calls him and they actually talk, which was meant to be a flat circle sort of deal, the story having started with Jeb(!) calling George in 1994 the night they both got elected.
Overall too romantic, and bought too much into the Pre-Donald Trump image of what Jeb(!) was. But, I may go back to it. It would just have to go in a very different direction.
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- Location
- Albany, NY
- Pronouns
- She/Her
First off, How good was Babylon Berlin? Fucking love that show.
Secondly, this is actually brilliant. I'm not normally a fan of X as Y, but you've done wonderfully with this and not just because Elmo Zumwalt is an excellent pick. You've really done a good job showing the fracturing of the political system with very few actual elections. Gritz as the leader the the Republican party thinking they can ride this tiger is both terrifying and definitely plausible if the established parties suddenly had to deal with a multi-party political order.
- Location
- Das Böse ist immer und überall
- Pronouns
- he/him
what
- Location
- Grittysborough
- Pronouns
- he/him
I didn’t even make that up. If succession laws are made male-preference instead of agnatic as part of a general liberalization and British influence under Frederick III - an anglophile liberal - the Prussian succession instead follows the line that the British succession does down to Crown Prince Wilhelm’s granddaughter Felicitas von Hohenzollern and her descendants, instead of to his second son, Louis Ferdinand.
It is a bit convergent to use OTL dates of birth and death for everyone after OTL Wilhelm I, and names (except for OTL Crown Prince Wilhelm, who became a Frederick) especially since some of those were definitely due to unnatural deaths, particularly in combat, but it worked conceptually for an initial stab at it.
- Location
- Das Böse ist immer und überall
- Pronouns
- he/him
Romanticism: not even once
Lord Caedus
Well-known member
- Location
- Minnesota
It's amazing.
Thank you very much. That's high praise considering that your lists are almost always of the highest quality.
Presidents of the United States, 1933 - present:
1933 - 1941: Burton Wheeler / Hugo Black (Democratic)
defeated, 1932: Herbert Hoover / Charles Curtis (Republican)
defeated, 1936: Hamilton Fish III / C. Douglass Buck (Republican)
1941 - 1942: Arthur Vandenberg / Gerald Nye (Republican)
defeated, 1940: Hugo Black / Sheridan Downey (Democratic), Huey Long / Elmer Benson (People's)
1942 - 1945 Arthur Vandenberg / Vacant (Republican)
1945 - ???: Sheridan Downey / Martin Dies (Democratic)
defeated, 1944: Arthur Vandenberg / Owen Brewster (Republican), Huey Long / Ernest Lundeen (People's)
defeated, 1948: Robert Moses / Bourke Hickenlooper (Republican)
This is a sort-of What If scenario for A New Order of Things, a Keys to the White House Game I'm running on The Other Place. Figured that thinking about a possible future in that world might help with some writer's block I'm dealing with.
...
So in this world, FDR loses the extremely narrow 1928 New York Gubernatorial Race after Al Smith and the New York party convinces him that he was the only one who could beat Albert Ottinger. Without a clear frontrunner going into 1932, the field is wide open, with Smith, John Nance Garner, Cordell Hull and Burton Wheeler all taking a crack at winning the nomination. Roosevelt, leading the New York delegation and suitably furious at Smith, swings his support behind Wheeler after Hull falters on the first few ballots, causing the Montana to start picking up steam. After a prolonged balloting process, Huey Long's switch from Garner to Wheeler pushes him over the edge. Wheeler, of course, triumphs over Hoover thanks to articulating a clear progressive position on how to fix the country and Hoover being Hoover. Wheeler's progressive agenda largely passes without challenge, and state-ran labor boards, various public work programs and the reintroduction of silver into the American monetary system all help the economy begin its long recovery. However, a botched plan at dealing with Dust Bowl without introducing price controls and getting the feds involved ends disastrously, but most Americans weren't bothered too much - Wheeler was bringing us out of the Depression, so who cares if a couple (million) farmers are displaced?
Wheeler easily turns back a right-wing challenge from New York representative and old money scion Hamilton Fish III, and settles in for another four years. It starts off well enough, with the Administration cutting out some of the "fat" from the Executive Branch, but the wheels soon fall off. It all starts after Administration ally John L. Lewis' nascent Congress of Industrial Organizations is crippled in its early stages after conservative labor boards across the Midwest and Northeast declare their campaign of sit-downs at steel plants "intentionally provocative" (referencing a police riot in Chicago that led to the death of 46 strikers) and only slap minor fines on the major steel companies. Soon after, Secretary of the Army Roosevelt resigns from the Cabinet after Wheeler refuses to condemn the actions of the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War and immediately begins organizing internationalist opposition to the President in Congress, and Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes resigns after Wheeler vetoes his plan for resettling Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany in Alaska (Wheeler opposed it on practical and, uh, personal grounds). Ickes goes the extra mile and leaks the plan to the press, leading to a wave of questions about where the Administrations loyalties "really lied."
After Wheeler turns down running for a third term (given his own personal opposition to the idea and the fact that the last four years were a disaster), Vice President Hugo Black, Secretary Roosevelt and Senator Huey Long all announce their intentions to become the next Democratic nominee. Black prevails over the divided field, but not after dealing with bruising revelations of his former KKK membership, and Long's third-party split. The Republican Party deals with their own problems after Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia stages an insurgent campaign that has legs (blame the SW voters, not me), but conservative isolationist Senator Arthur Vandenberg prevails at the Convention after he unites forces with also-ran Gerald Nye. Black finds himself sandwiched between the left and the right while defending Wheeler's past actions, while Vandenberg plays up Black's shady background as a good ol' boy and Long's radical politics - do you think Huey could deal with Hitler and Stalin, let alone Chamberlain? Vandenberg wins it all - and then loses everything.
Vandenberg spends the first few months of his Administration cost-cutting through Executive Orders thanks to an uncooperative Congress, with his only real achievement being a sweeping definition of preemptive law in municipalities (which was a bit of a bone to the South, seeing how a few of the more liberal cities in the Upper South were getting a little bit... uppity). However, war breaks out in early 1941 after the Germans invade Poland, and while a last-minute alliance between Prime Minister Attlee and Stalin passes Parliament by the skin of its teeth, the outlook looks grim. Vandenberg doesn't help, vetoing numerous "lend-lease" bills promoted by Roosevelt's internationalists, only agreeing to beef up the Army and the Navy (both of which were gutted by Wheeler) on the grounds of it being "purely defensive." Keeping true to his isolationist credentials, Vandenberg upholds scrap metal trade with the Empire of Japan despite the protestations of many, which made the Japanese invasion of the Philippines later that month look very, very bad. In one last humiliating move, Vandenberg orders Congress to wait a full two days before an official declaration of war for "diplomatic reasons," causing the press to label the President as a traitor. With his back against the wall, the President reluctantly joins the war after a few choice meetings with one Elizabeth Thorpe, but its under a cloud - Vice President Nye's public denunciations of interventionist ideology throughout 1941 have come under scrutiny, with various payments from German-sounding clients being traced to his bank account. The story of the Vice President being a possible Nazi turncoat grabs the headlines, and with a Democratic Congress out for blood, Vandenberg forces his resignation (the accusations largely proved to be true as later studies proved, but no criminal charges were pressed against Nye. However, Representative Pelley of the People's Party was convicted on numerous accounts of treason, destroying the party outside of Louisiana). Once the distractions are dealt with, the President settles in to deal with the war effort, and does a shit job at it. Sure, by 1944 Japan and Germany are on the backfoot (but the Soviets and British largely take credit for the latter), but that's after the Japanese burned East Asia and the Pacific to the ground. Governor Sheridan Downey of California, Black's veep in 1940 and a liberal-turned-conservative who positioned himself on the frontlines of the war, won in a landslide, leaving Vandenberg to be discussed in the same tones as Buchanan and Harding.
Downey spends his first term largely cleaning up Vandenberg's mess - under the guise of removing possible foreign agents, the President stuffs the Executive Branch with his own cronies and business associates in a way that would make Andrew Jackson blush. The War continues to turn in the Allies favor (allowing for Downey to take all the credit for it), and after these "atomic bomb" things wipe Hiroshima, Yokohama and Kyoto off the map, the Allies begin carving up Europe and Asia in a bid to shape the post-war world. Europe is a foregone conclusion as Stalin installs puppet governments for every nation east of the Rhine, but China (thankfully) is won by the Nationalists, while Korea and Japan are firmly under Uncle Sam’s thumb. Downey, bolstered by a booming economy and being Mr. Won the War, ignores Wheeler’s progressive precedent and began going all in on this “corporatism” idea - he did the same in California (Upton Sinclair was furious at how Downey bastardized his EPIC plan), so why couldn’t he do the same nationally?
After winning re-election against (now former) Senator Robert Moses, Downey prepares to get down to business and get to the real nuts and bolts of his agenda. Delivering his second Inaugural Address, Downey spoke of America’s need to rise above “petty partisan squabbling” and rebuild the nation in a new image - a strong state at home, and a strong nation abroad (General de Gaulle is excitedly taking notes) is the President’s idea of that new image, but who knows if it will work?
1933 - 1941: Burton Wheeler / Hugo Black (Democratic)
defeated, 1932: Herbert Hoover / Charles Curtis (Republican)
defeated, 1936: Hamilton Fish III / C. Douglass Buck (Republican)
1941 - 1942: Arthur Vandenberg / Gerald Nye (Republican)
defeated, 1940: Hugo Black / Sheridan Downey (Democratic), Huey Long / Elmer Benson (People's)
1942 - 1945 Arthur Vandenberg / Vacant (Republican)
1945 - ???: Sheridan Downey / Martin Dies (Democratic)
defeated, 1944: Arthur Vandenberg / Owen Brewster (Republican), Huey Long / Ernest Lundeen (People's)
defeated, 1948: Robert Moses / Bourke Hickenlooper (Republican)
This is a sort-of What If scenario for A New Order of Things, a Keys to the White House Game I'm running on The Other Place. Figured that thinking about a possible future in that world might help with some writer's block I'm dealing with.
...
So in this world, FDR loses the extremely narrow 1928 New York Gubernatorial Race after Al Smith and the New York party convinces him that he was the only one who could beat Albert Ottinger. Without a clear frontrunner going into 1932, the field is wide open, with Smith, John Nance Garner, Cordell Hull and Burton Wheeler all taking a crack at winning the nomination. Roosevelt, leading the New York delegation and suitably furious at Smith, swings his support behind Wheeler after Hull falters on the first few ballots, causing the Montana to start picking up steam. After a prolonged balloting process, Huey Long's switch from Garner to Wheeler pushes him over the edge. Wheeler, of course, triumphs over Hoover thanks to articulating a clear progressive position on how to fix the country and Hoover being Hoover. Wheeler's progressive agenda largely passes without challenge, and state-ran labor boards, various public work programs and the reintroduction of silver into the American monetary system all help the economy begin its long recovery. However, a botched plan at dealing with Dust Bowl without introducing price controls and getting the feds involved ends disastrously, but most Americans weren't bothered too much - Wheeler was bringing us out of the Depression, so who cares if a couple (million) farmers are displaced?
Wheeler easily turns back a right-wing challenge from New York representative and old money scion Hamilton Fish III, and settles in for another four years. It starts off well enough, with the Administration cutting out some of the "fat" from the Executive Branch, but the wheels soon fall off. It all starts after Administration ally John L. Lewis' nascent Congress of Industrial Organizations is crippled in its early stages after conservative labor boards across the Midwest and Northeast declare their campaign of sit-downs at steel plants "intentionally provocative" (referencing a police riot in Chicago that led to the death of 46 strikers) and only slap minor fines on the major steel companies. Soon after, Secretary of the Army Roosevelt resigns from the Cabinet after Wheeler refuses to condemn the actions of the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War and immediately begins organizing internationalist opposition to the President in Congress, and Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes resigns after Wheeler vetoes his plan for resettling Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany in Alaska (Wheeler opposed it on practical and, uh, personal grounds). Ickes goes the extra mile and leaks the plan to the press, leading to a wave of questions about where the Administrations loyalties "really lied."
After Wheeler turns down running for a third term (given his own personal opposition to the idea and the fact that the last four years were a disaster), Vice President Hugo Black, Secretary Roosevelt and Senator Huey Long all announce their intentions to become the next Democratic nominee. Black prevails over the divided field, but not after dealing with bruising revelations of his former KKK membership, and Long's third-party split. The Republican Party deals with their own problems after Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia stages an insurgent campaign that has legs (blame the SW voters, not me), but conservative isolationist Senator Arthur Vandenberg prevails at the Convention after he unites forces with also-ran Gerald Nye. Black finds himself sandwiched between the left and the right while defending Wheeler's past actions, while Vandenberg plays up Black's shady background as a good ol' boy and Long's radical politics - do you think Huey could deal with Hitler and Stalin, let alone Chamberlain? Vandenberg wins it all - and then loses everything.
Vandenberg spends the first few months of his Administration cost-cutting through Executive Orders thanks to an uncooperative Congress, with his only real achievement being a sweeping definition of preemptive law in municipalities (which was a bit of a bone to the South, seeing how a few of the more liberal cities in the Upper South were getting a little bit... uppity). However, war breaks out in early 1941 after the Germans invade Poland, and while a last-minute alliance between Prime Minister Attlee and Stalin passes Parliament by the skin of its teeth, the outlook looks grim. Vandenberg doesn't help, vetoing numerous "lend-lease" bills promoted by Roosevelt's internationalists, only agreeing to beef up the Army and the Navy (both of which were gutted by Wheeler) on the grounds of it being "purely defensive." Keeping true to his isolationist credentials, Vandenberg upholds scrap metal trade with the Empire of Japan despite the protestations of many, which made the Japanese invasion of the Philippines later that month look very, very bad. In one last humiliating move, Vandenberg orders Congress to wait a full two days before an official declaration of war for "diplomatic reasons," causing the press to label the President as a traitor. With his back against the wall, the President reluctantly joins the war after a few choice meetings with one Elizabeth Thorpe, but its under a cloud - Vice President Nye's public denunciations of interventionist ideology throughout 1941 have come under scrutiny, with various payments from German-sounding clients being traced to his bank account. The story of the Vice President being a possible Nazi turncoat grabs the headlines, and with a Democratic Congress out for blood, Vandenberg forces his resignation (the accusations largely proved to be true as later studies proved, but no criminal charges were pressed against Nye. However, Representative Pelley of the People's Party was convicted on numerous accounts of treason, destroying the party outside of Louisiana). Once the distractions are dealt with, the President settles in to deal with the war effort, and does a shit job at it. Sure, by 1944 Japan and Germany are on the backfoot (but the Soviets and British largely take credit for the latter), but that's after the Japanese burned East Asia and the Pacific to the ground. Governor Sheridan Downey of California, Black's veep in 1940 and a liberal-turned-conservative who positioned himself on the frontlines of the war, won in a landslide, leaving Vandenberg to be discussed in the same tones as Buchanan and Harding.
Downey spends his first term largely cleaning up Vandenberg's mess - under the guise of removing possible foreign agents, the President stuffs the Executive Branch with his own cronies and business associates in a way that would make Andrew Jackson blush. The War continues to turn in the Allies favor (allowing for Downey to take all the credit for it), and after these "atomic bomb" things wipe Hiroshima, Yokohama and Kyoto off the map, the Allies begin carving up Europe and Asia in a bid to shape the post-war world. Europe is a foregone conclusion as Stalin installs puppet governments for every nation east of the Rhine, but China (thankfully) is won by the Nationalists, while Korea and Japan are firmly under Uncle Sam’s thumb. Downey, bolstered by a booming economy and being Mr. Won the War, ignores Wheeler’s progressive precedent and began going all in on this “corporatism” idea - he did the same in California (Upton Sinclair was furious at how Downey bastardized his EPIC plan), so why couldn’t he do the same nationally?
After winning re-election against (now former) Senator Robert Moses, Downey prepares to get down to business and get to the real nuts and bolts of his agenda. Delivering his second Inaugural Address, Downey spoke of America’s need to rise above “petty partisan squabbling” and rebuild the nation in a new image - a strong state at home, and a strong nation abroad (General de Gaulle is excitedly taking notes) is the President’s idea of that new image, but who knows if it will work?
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I Saw A Red Sky
He killed my ma, he killed my pa, but 🤓
I could maybe see Long and Floyd Olson on one ticket (though that's also unlikely), but I'm not sure how you get Benson there.