Alternate Ireland's of the 20th century

[Dan1988]

I wonder if there's any way to avoid, or at least minimize the IRA split and have the Officials remain as the major Republican force in Ireland?

Wouldn't the easy option for that be running with the recognition by the RSFSR around the time of the War of Independence and transforming itself basically into the Irish Communist Party before the OTL formation of the Irish Communist Party in the 1930s, incorporating James Connolly's old Socialist Party in the process? In that case, the Pro-Treaty and Anti-Treaty split within the IRA would become more clear.

 

[Bonniecanuck]

I still find myself entertained at the thought of Northern Ireland becoming home to a plurality of Chinese people following the cession of Hong Kong, even though (or because) the proposal for it was pure banter.

 

[Japhy]

I still find myself entertained at the thought of Northern Ireland becoming home to a plurality of Chinese people following the cession of Hong Kong, even though (or because) the proposal for it was pure banter.

Every few months I consider writing a Vignette about that and then decide its rubbish and I'd get dragged for being a dumb American.

 

[Skinny87]

Every few months I consider writing a Vignette about that and then decide its rubbish and I'd get dragged for being a dumb American.

I mean I'm writing a novel set in wartime Norway which I (currently) know nothing about. I can't see why you'd get dragged for trying something new

 

[Japhy]

I mean I'm writing a novel set in wartime Norway which I (currently) know nothing about. I can't see why you'd get dragged for trying something new

Because I tend to think that's bad form.

 

[Charles EP M.]

Here's a cheeky one:

1916: The Easter Rising leaders aren't executed and the British government doesn't round (as many) people up. Republican sentiment isn't inflamed.

1919-or-so: Ireland finally gets Home Rule, squeaking through on talk of the Glorious Sacrifice Of Irishmen against perfidious Prussia. There's some violence but nothing serious because everyone's sick of war.

1931: George Lansbury, backed with Irish Labour MPs, takes power and decides on disarmament. He'll be forced to change tack by the mid-30s but it's looking too late by then...

1940: The one-two shock of massacres in Scandinavia and bombing of south England cities sees quislings seize power - but the King and enough of the government flee to Dublin, and the RAF and Royal Navy follow. Ireland is now the last stand of the United Kingdom, the last free nation in western Europe, the centre of Empire, the source of resistance aid for the occupied albion; Brits, Irishmen, Commonwealth citizens, and scores of Irish-American volunteers man Spitfires in defence of the island, while the Navy and the Irish people prepare for the inevitable German invasion - Operation Green.

Can Ireland hold out long enough for America to get there?

Who do you think you're kidding, Mister Hitler
You have us all wrong
We're children of a fighting race
That never yet has known disgrace
If you come here, we'll march out, Mister Hitler
You don't know the foe you face

 

[RyanF]

As long as butterflies include Dev being killed its worth the price.

Realise this was a reply to another thread but seems very appropriate here.

How would Ireland have developed during the twentieth century without it's most dominating figure?

Obviously depends when, anything after 1959 and his mark on Ireland is identical. Before his last term as Taoiseach; will whoever fulfils the role bring back internment as a response to the Border Campaign? Sometime in the late 40s whilst he was Opposition leader; does Ireland join NATO? After the adoption of the 1937 constitution but before the War; does Ireland join the War? Before Edward VIII's abdication; does a new constitution come into being and does it cement the special position of the Catholic Church and promote Catholic social policy? Before the 1932 election; does the Anglo-Irish Trade War still happen? Before the foundation of Fianna Fail; does a non-abstentionist republican party still come into being and dominate politics? Before the Civil War; does the Anti-Treaty feeling not lead to all out Civil War, sparing Michael Collins? During the Easter Rising; does independence proceed on schedule and will someone else have his success in securing American donations?

 

[Artaxerxes]

Realise this was a reply to another thread but seems very appropriate here.

How would Ireland have developed during the twentieth century without it's most dominating figure?

Obviously depends when, anything after 1959 and his mark on Ireland is identical. Before his last term as Taoiseach; will whoever fulfils the role bring back internment as a response to the Border Campaign? Sometime in the late 40s whilst he was Opposition leader; does Ireland join NATO? After the adoption of the 1937 constitution but before the War; does Ireland join the War? Before Edward VIII's abdication; does a new constitution come into being and does it cement the special position of the Catholic Church and promote Catholic social policy? Before the 1932 election; does the Anglo-Irish Trade War still happen? Before the foundation of Fianna Fail; does a non-abstentionist republican party still come into being and dominate politics? Before the Civil War; does the Anti-Treaty feeling not lead to all out Civil War, sparing Michael Collins? During the Easter Rising; does independence proceed on schedule and will someone else have his success in securing American donations?

An Ireland with Michael Collins alive is mostly why I started the thread tbh. He was that very rare thing, an idealogue willing to compromise and build bridges in a way Dev never was.

Not sure you can entirely stop the civil war, the brigade commanders are so used to respecting no central authority that the sheer suddenness of British withdrawal leaves a gap that was impossible to fill.

Probably the best outcome for Ireland is them joining WW2, probably officially sometime after fall of France or Pearl Harbor and getting concessions towards Northern Irish union. Collins might be able to swing it as Churchill seemed to respect him at least marginally.

The war offers the chance to get much needed industry into the Republic as well as favourable rates for agricultural products.

Alternatively with Collins sponsorship of Ra reprisals towards loyalist persecution of Northern Catholics the 30s might get exceedingly hairy.

 

[Yokai Man]

An Ireland with Michael Collins alive is mostly why I started the thread tbh. He was that very rare thing, an idealogue willing to compromise and build bridges in a way Dev never was.

Not sure you can entirely stop the civil war, the brigade commanders are so used to respecting no central authority that the sheer suddenness of British withdrawal leaves a gap that was impossible to fill.

Probably the best outcome for Ireland is them joining WW2, probably officially sometime after fall of France or Pearl Harbor and getting concessions towards Northern Irish union. Collins might be able to swing it as Churchill seemed to respect him at least marginally.

The war offers the chance to get much needed industry into the Republic as well as favourable rates for agricultural products.

Alternatively with Collins sponsorship of Ra reprisals towards loyalist persecution of Northern Catholics the 30s might get exceedingly hairy.

“The Troubles,but in the 1930’s” could be an interesting TL,if a bit horrifying.

At least that’s what I understood from Collins surviving and also being supportive of IRA reprisals towards loyalist persecutions.

 

[Simon]

It involves a pre-1900 point of divergence but William Pitt the Younger being able to get Catholic emancipation passed in 1801 as part of the quid pro quo for the Acts of Union has always interested me. One of George III's bouts of madness from our timeline lasting a couple of extra days and then a fortuitously timed one around the time of the vote could have put George IV in a position to grant royal assent.

It's relatively minor in comparison but avoiding the Anglo-Irish trade war would have generally been a good thing. Simply have the 1925 London Agreement specifically state that whilst the Free State is excused from having to pay its share of the UK's public debt that the land annuities are still owed.

A more drastic idea would be population exchanges between the North and the Free State. The UK government buys up land in the Free State from British owners and offers it Catholic landowners and farmers in Ulster to encourage them to emigrate, the freed up land in turn being offered to Protestants. Straight up cash payments to Catholics to move south–or perhaps the US–also work. This does however require there to be some foresightedness about future problems, so I'm not if it's really doable.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

That last one feels like a recipe for a hell of a lot of violence. It's explicitly a project that would end the chance for a unified Ireland, and could quite possibly see a much earlier revival of the paramilitaries.

Which would actually tie in with the '1930s Troubles' idea, I suppsoe.

 

[Simon]

That last one feels like a recipe for a hell of a lot of violence. It's explicitly a project that would end the chance for a unified Ireland, and could quite possibly see a much earlier revival of the paramilitaries.

Was their honestly an expectation on the part of the Republicans that the North would eventually join the Free State? I don't know enough about them during the period.

 

[OwenM]

Was their honestly an expectation on the part of the Republicans that the North would eventually join the Free State? I don't know enough about them during the period.

 

[Indicus]

No United Irishmen in the 1790s; Grattan's parliament evolves into home rule naturally throughout the 19th century; in the 20th century, First Minister Ian Paisley and his deputy Mary McAleese of the Irish National Party are heading up an unsuccessful indepence campaign, opposed by the Unionist leader Gerald Adams.

Has Corbis photographs and Wikiboxes.

I don’t think that would be enough to stop Pitt from ending Irish autonomy. According to this article here, the United Irishmen were little more than an excuse for Pitt to abolish Irish legislative independence.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Was their honestly an expectation on the part of the Republicans that the North would eventually join the Free State? I don't know enough about them during the period.

Very much so, the north and south Ireland parliaments were a fudge pulled out if the British governments arse.

From a Southern perspective the goal was always to have a united Ireland. Even when negotiating the treaty there were attempts to unite the country and square the circle.

 

[Doctor Sulemain]

Very much so, the north and south Ireland parliaments were a fudge pulled out if the British governments arse.

From a Southern perspective the goal was always to have a united Ireland. Even when negotiating the treaty there were attempts to unite the country and square the circle.

I've occasionally wondered how they proposed to deal with the mollify the Unionists/Loyalists post-unification.

And the same regarding the PIRA's plans. I mean did they really expect the UVF types to be happy in a United Ireland?

 

[Simon]

I mean did they really expect the UVF types to be happy in a United Ireland?

That's pretty much what prompted my question. With the UVF, the Curragh Mutiny – however limited it actually was, and elements back in the UK being supportive, it just seems highly unlikely that the Unionists would simply roll over.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

I think, frankly, there was some expectation that they'd just leave. There was a real decline in southern Ireland's Protestant population in the years following the treaty- part of the context for 'Come Out Ye Black And Tans' is that it's a nationalist family taunting their working class Protestant neighbors, and implicitly telling them that they're not welcome in the new state.

 

[lordroel]

So Michael Collins avoids a bullet to the brain, the Easter Rising doesn't go ahead or is squashed slightly less brutally.

Am i mistaken as Michael Collins died in 1922 during the Irish Civil War with a bullet to his head, the Easter Rising happened in 1916.

 

[RyanF]

Am i mistaken as Michael Collins died in 1922 during the Irish Civil War with a bullet to his head, the Easter Rising happened in 1916.

I think they're separate examples of PODs.