• Hi Guest!

    The costs of running this forum are covered by Sea Lion Press. If you'd like to help support the company and the forum, visit patreon.com/sealionpress

Alternate History General Discussion

Charles EP M. said:
420 books instead, got it
Click to expand...
No wonder the Confederates were so antsy for Union ham rations: they were all blazed out of their fucking minds and have a bad case of the munchies. Can’t be Nazi-analogues on an empty stomach!

And it would explain why the Union soldiers were so desirous of Confederate tobacco: their funny cigarettes tasted like cowshit because the New Englanders’ hydroponics suck.
 
Wasn't expecting the reprints of Ennis and Keith Burns's 2010s Johnny Red in the Dredd Meg - a miniseries version of an 80s war comic, where a Scouser called Johnny flies with the USSR's Falcon Squadron - reveal itself as a sort-of alternate history comic. And yet in Part 6 we get
Stalin has received a secret overture in 1942 to "not exactly surrender" but to withdraw east of the Urals to let the Germans have territorial gains, as Stalin doesn't believe Stalingrad can be relieved and doesn't believe the other Allies are going to turn up. The agreement is then off after Moscow hears that El Alamein has been taken, which makes it seem worth hanging on and trying until a second front arrives, and we'll just try to cover up that this almost happened.

Falcon Squadron are not happy to learn this from the NKVD character. "Comrade, please know that this was not my doing..." "MY MOTHER AND FATHER'S BONES LIE BURIED IN THE RUBBLE OF OUR HOMETOWN! IF I HEAR THE WORD COMRADE FROM YOUR MOUTH AGAIN--"
 
A book that I didn't notice over the summer when it was published and have just become aware of is the slightly-awkwardly titled Moments That... Could've Changed Football Forever: What If..? by Peter Prickett and Peter Thornton, published by niche football publishing house Pitch Publishing.

I've not yet purchased a copy, but probably will to give a full review at some point, because I'm greatly in favour of alternate football history. The chapters are:
  • What if Eric Cantona hadn't retired?
  • What if there was no offside law?
  • What if Celtic and Rangers had joined the Premier League?
  • What if Ronaldo and Messi had played together?
  • What if Tom Finney had been born in a different era?
  • What if Pelé had played in Europe?
  • What if Brazil 1970 played Spain 2008-12 [To paraphrase (aprocrpyhally?) Pelé 'Brazil would win 1-0. That's a close game, but you have to remember that most of the Brazil team are over 75 now.']
  • What if Pep Guardiola managed in League Two
  • What if England had built their team around Glenn Hoddle?
  • What if these crazy transfers had actually happened?
  • What if the Champions League was still for champions only?
  • What if English clubs had not been banned from Europe in 1985?
  • What if Steven Gerrard had signed for Chelsea?
  • What if Brian Clough had managed England?
  • What if Ajax never sold?
  • What if football had a linear champion like boxing?
  • What if the Munich air crash never happened?
  • What if an African team win the World Cup?
  • What if Hungary 1954 played Holland 1974?
  • What if the ref had called it right?
  • What if Paul Gascoigne had scored in the Euro 96 semi-final?
  • What if we restructured English football?
  • What if Michael Owen had stayed fit?
  • What if soccer had become the national sport of the USA?
  • What if Roman Abramovich buys Spurs instead of Chelsea?
  • What if Jimmy Greaves had stayed fit during the 1966 World Cup finals?
  • What if Real Madrid Galacticos 1960 played Real Madrid Galacticos 2002?
  • What if technology took over from the referee?
There's some really interesting PODs in there, some of which are fantastical (the match-ups - in the introduction the authors say, "It's because our background is coaching" which I think are more a look at different coaching methods with a focus.), and only a couple that worry me - "What if football had a linear champion" concerns me that it will just outline the Unofficial Football World Championships, without considering the effect that a linear championship would have had on football; similarly "What if the Champions League was still for champions only?"

I'll update further once I have read the whole book, but someone might get there first.

An enterprising blog editor such as @David Flin might see if either Peter might be enticed to discuss the book with them too!
 
Last edited:
Stateless said:
A book that I didn't notice over the summer when it was published and have just become aware of is the slightly-awkwardly titled Moments That... Could've Changed Football Forever: What If..? by Peter Prickett and Peter Thornton, published by niche football publishing house Pitch Publishing.

I've not yet purchased a copy, but probably will to give a full review at some point, because I'm greatly in favour of alternate football history. The chapters are:
  • What if Pep Guardiola managed in League Two
Click to expand...

There’s this article on that exact scenario where Pep and Man City do get knocked down to League Two due to the FFP breaches and a shitload of the players jumping ship. Pep does manage to keep them up and into League One, but Pep, for some reason, joins Wigan Athletic despite being, you know, Pep Guardiola.
 
With professional wrestling being an extremely big thing in the American south and a shit load of the biggest figures in wrestling being, you know, from the south, I do wonder about an independent CSA and the development of professional wrestling.

Yes I know the chances of an independent CSA is basically zero and it would have fallen apart in not too short of a time but I do wonder what it would look like. Would it still encourage a territorial system? Would it still try to present itself as a legitimate sport?
 
Christian said:
With professional wrestling being an extremely big thing in the American south and a shit load of the biggest figures in wrestling being, you know, from the south, I do wonder about an independent CSA and the development of professional wrestling.

Yes I know the chances of an independent CSA is basically zero and it would have fallen apart in not too short of a time but I do wonder what it would look like. Would it still encourage a territorial system? Would it still try to present itself as a legitimate sport?
Click to expand...
Catch wrestling was widespread before the Civil War, so there's that at least. Wrestling in the South has a rather weird history with integration and honestly I think that is likely to be one of the biggest variables- a surviving CSA will likely be even more race-conscious than OTL's American South and that is going to hugely shape the development of any sport. (Harry Turtledove even makes a nod to this in TL-191 with some White Confederates speculating on what integrated boxing could look like and basically saying it could never be done).

One could imagine a technician-versus-performer divide where there are 'legitimate" (collegiate, military and amateur) white wrestling avenues more concerned with technical displays and with the sport-as-competition and then 'Negro leagues' closer to the more obviously staged origins of professional wrestling IOTL and with the sport-as-performance. You could even play with the 'corrupting' influence of money where there's actually more money in the business of the latter and have society fretting about watching a spectacle of black achievement or white wrestlers adopting the mannerisms of black performers.
 
Last edited:
The bigger thing about pro wrestling (regardless of demographics) is that legit catch wrestling is inherently boring for most people to watch. Countless wrestling-dominant MMA fighters have reputations for a "lay and pray" style where they pin/smother their opponents, run out the clock, and win by decision. Make those matches more open-ended, and, well....

So what you need is rule changes (and a centralized body to enforce them), such as shorter exact rounds and MMA's referee disentanglement applied even more liberally (or making it even more like modern MMA by allowing direct striking of some sort as well). Which is basically what happened with boxing IOTL-bare knuckle fights involved far more grappling than glove boxing, which meant duller clinchfests combined with boxers falling over on purpose to have the round end and thus get a breather.
 
Christian said:
There’s this article on that exact scenario where Pep and Man City do get knocked down to League Two due to the FFP breaches and a shitload of the players jumping ship. Pep does manage to keep them up and into League One, but Pep, for some reason, joins Wigan Athletic despite being, you know, Pep Guardiola.
Click to expand...
It’s obviously one big parody, but I do wonder what would actually happen if they’d be forcefully relegated to League Two. Guardiola, almost the entirety of his staff, and any half decent player would likely leave, but I can definitely imagine them climbing their way back up under someone like Rangnick with a Red Bull-like project.
 
Reading Prickett and Thornton's what-if, and I love the section about if no offsides rule was developed.

Their claims:
  1. Players would pack around the goals. The midfield becomes more or less irrelevant.
  2. Height becomes critical for most players as the game becomes more vertical.
  3. The only relevant defense now is man-to-man.
I would say that a version of offsides-less soccer after decades of popularity and refinement would probably not be as min-max as they claim and/or require a completely different and new skill-set. But it would be extremely different nonetheless.
 
Coiler said:
Reading Prickett and Thornton's what-if, and I love the section about if no offsides rule was developed.

Their claims:
  1. Players would pack around the goals. The midfield becomes more or less irrelevant.
  2. Height becomes critical for most players as the game becomes more vertical.
  3. The only relevant defense now is man-to-man.
I would say that a version of offsides-less soccer after decades of popularity and refinement would probably not be as min-max as they claim and/or require a completely different and new skill-set. But it would be extremely different nonetheless.
Click to expand...
You'd end up with some other rule to stop the game just being a free-for-all fight under a high ball into the box, because that's just fundamentally a really dull game. Maybe a "no shots from within N yards" rule and a wider pitch to force the game to open up?
 
Last edited:
I will say, an alternate history that fascinates me the most is one where the story starts a long time ago, but doesn't really change in the present. For example, I'd be more interested in reading an alternate history like, "Confederates win - how do they handle the Cold War?" than one which is like, "Confederates win, everything changes".
 
MachiavelliJr said:
You'd end up with some other rule to stop the game just being a free-for-all fight under a high ball into the box, because that's just fundamentally a really dull game. Maybe a "no shots from within N yards" rule and a wider pitch to force the game to open up?
Click to expand...
The more boring on paper but more plausible option is a different version of the offside rule (simplest would be changing number of defenders to be fine) or even just the modern rules coming in earlier along with the relevant tactical impact. IIRC Sheffield, when they eventually gave in on the subject, had a rule of one whilst the FA was following the Cambridge rule of four, so it's not impossible.....
EDIT: Or for that matter the change from three to two - credited with being the spark that led Chapman to create the WM - being delayed....
 
OwenM said:
The more boring on paper but more plausible option is a different version of the offside rule (simplest would be changing number of defenders to be fine) or even just the modern rules coming in earlier along with the relevant tactical impact. IIRC Sheffield, when they eventually gave in on the subject, had a rule of one whilst the FA was following the Cambridge rule of four, so it's not impossible.....
EDIT: Or for that matter the change from three to two - credited with being the spark that led Chapman to create the WM - being delayed....
Click to expand...
I remember reading something that credited the change to one Bill McCracken, a defender playing for Newcastle. He started experimenting with stepping up and catching the forward offside (the "one back" formation) in the seasons just before WW1 broke out, then continued his tactic afterwards. Newcastle had a fair bit of success in the twenties, so he was imitated by others. The number of goals in the football league tumbled to about a third of what it had been in about 1912, so the law was changed from three defenders to two to restore the balance.

I imagine many other clubs have their own history, where one of their chaps is credited.
 
Coiler said:
Reading Prickett and Thornton's what-if, and I love the section about if no offsides rule was developed.

Their claims:
  1. Players would pack around the goals. The midfield becomes more or less irrelevant.
  2. Height becomes critical for most players as the game becomes more vertical.
  3. The only relevant defense now is man-to-man.
I would say that a version of offsides-less soccer after decades of popularity and refinement would probably not be as min-max as they claim and/or require a completely different and new skill-set. But it would be extremely different nonetheless.
Click to expand...
If only (shut up Gaelic football, I’m talking) there were a version of football with no offside rule so we could observe it.

If only.
 
Read the Aztec Empire gumshoe storh Aztlan by Michael Jay Friedman, after @Skinny87 mentioned it in his last essay. Really nice AH work as just when you're feeling used to this world, out comes an offhand detail to throw you off: "a slave broker" which is a legal job, various taboo language about religion and castes, the public transport setup, illegal chocolate, police brutality as entirely correct and proper.
 
Now on the first Pangea anthology Friedman edited, where humans evolved on Pangea and there's a shared world with stories in different lands. Two stories so far, and there's one problem with Friedman's opener: it's good and has an interesting world (a powersharing nation with two races who used to be slaves & rebelled together) but it's so divergent that it's really a fantasy story that doesn't require a single-continent AH. The second one, an article about the conspiracy theory about another continent and the comments mocking it, works better with the premise.
 
Bolt451 said:
A remake of Guns of the South but instead it's a time traveling @Japhy giving John Brown silenced MP5s
Click to expand...
One rough idea of mine that's been percolating for a while, and which I may at last start outlining for in January:

Not long after a devastating Second Civil War, a squad of soldiers patrolling near Gettysburg discovers a rift in time, leading to the early 1850s. Eventually, a government-funded project coalesces around this, deciding to give WWI/WWII-type weapons (Garand rifles, better-designed Maxim guns, etc.), to the Union at the start of the first Civil War, in hopes of changing the project's bleak, likely doomed future for the better. When the future remains the same, the project switches to an emphasis on trade (i.e., locating/harvesting minerals known from history, to bring to the future and help rebuild/strengthen the U.S.), but given the geopolitical tensions and climate collapse of the future, some are eying the rift as the ultimate fallout shelter...and, perhaps, the way to a new world to conquer and resettle should the old be destroyed...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top