Alternate History General Discussion

[Japhy]

So, let's say a country committed genocide. Would it be imperialism to invade that country?

If the tooth fairy was real she'd owe me money.

No one launches invasions to end genocides. Stopping genocide might be a positive benefit but if there's an invasion it's for other reasons first.

 

[Ricardolindo]

I think people think too much about the root cause of Islamic fundamentalism. Look at the GIA's massacres of Muslim Algerian civilians in the Algerian Civil War in the 90s. Islamic fundamentalists aren't rational.

 

[Ricardolindo]

If the tooth fairy was real she'd owe me money.

No one launches invasions to end genocides. Stopping genocide might be a positive benefit but if there's an invasion it's for other reasons first.

Not really invasions but what about the NATO intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina and later Kosovo?

 

[Ricardolindo]

I think people think too much about the root cause of Islamic fundamentalism. Look at the GIA's massacres of Muslim Algerian civilians in the Algerian Civil War in the 90s. Islamic fundamentalists aren't rational.

I have always disagreed with the idea that "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". That doesn't consider the possibility that the other man is a nutjob.

 

[Delta Force]

What does oppression exactly entail, and is there a nation where there is no oppression?

I think it’s better to judge a state based on its wealth. Algeria’s deficiencies are easier to accept than say Qatar’s IMO.

Enslaving people, running death camps, executing people for apostasy, etc.

 

[lerk]

I think people think too much about the root cause of Islamic fundamentalism. Look at the GIA's massacres of Muslim Algerian civilians in the Algerian Civil War in the 90s. Islamic fundamentalists aren't rational.

GIA was pretty much infiltrated by Algerian intelligence agencies at that time - those massacres were done to tarnish the overall image of the Algerian Islamist movement.

 

[frustrated progressive]

GIA was pretty much infiltrated by Algerian intelligence agencies at that time - those massacres were done to tarnish the overall image of the Algerian Islamist movement.

Wait, really?
I've never heard this, though I wouldn't put it past the Algerian security apparatus to do that.

 

[Warthog]

The United States supported the coup against Alfredo Stroessner in 1989, the same year of the invasion of Panama.

Stroessner was a long time US ally, and recipient of large amounts of US military aid. Since there was no substantial war involving Paraguay during his administration, the weaponry was largely used internally, ie against civilian opponents. US attitudes to Stroessner may have cooled by 1989 to the extent the CIA didn't help him avoid the coup, but I've not read of any direct US involvement?

The Panama invasion was portrayed at the time as being part of the "war on drugs", with Noriega as a narcobaron in pro-invasion propaganda, and as being a precursor to US retention of the canal in anti-invasion propaganda.

 

[Ricardolindo]

GIA was pretty much infiltrated by Algerian intelligence agencies at that time - those massacres were done to tarnish the overall image of the Algerian Islamist movement.

Wait, really?
I've never heard this, though I wouldn't put it past the Algerian security apparatus to do that.

I knew someone was going to mention that. Not everyone agrees with that theory, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed...ria#Claims_of_Algerian_Government_involvement. There were cases in which attackers were unmasked and identified as local radicals. One such case was an elected member of the FIS. Max Abrahams said it was a fallacy to assume that the perpetrators and beneficiares of terrorism must be the same. I'd say ISIS, which employs the same methods that the GIA did, is evidence against those theories.

 

[Ricardolindo]

GIA was pretty much infiltrated by Algerian intelligence agencies at that time - those massacres were done to tarnish the overall image of the Algerian Islamist movement.

I knew someone was going to mention that. Not everyone agrees with that theory, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed...ria#Claims_of_Algerian_Government_involvement. There were cases in which attackers were unmasked and identified as local radicals. One such case was an elected member of the FIS. Max Abrahams said it was a fallacy to assume that the perpetrators and beneficiares of terrorism must be the same. I'd say ISIS, which employs the same methods that the GIA did, is evidence against those theories.

The Islamic Salvation Front was not a democratic movement. Let's cite their own leaders: Abbassi Madani said "We do not accept this democracy which permits an elected official to be in contradiction with Islam, the Shari'a, its doctrines and values.", read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War#Background.
But to be fair, Abbassi Madani was the leader of the more moderate faction of the Islamic Salvation Front and he had committed to respect the minority even if it consisted of one vote. Ali Belhadj, the leader of the more radical faction of the Islamic Salvation Front was worse. He said "Democracy is a stranger in the House of God. Guard yourself against those who say that the notion of democracy exists in Islam. There is no democracy in Islam. There exists only the shura (consultation) with its rules and constraints. ... We are not a nation that thinks in terms of majority-minority. The majority does not express the truth." and "Multi-partism is not tolerated unless it agrees with the single framework of Islam ... If people vote against the Law of God ... this is nothing other than blasphemy. The ulama [religious scholars] will order the death of the offenders who have substituted their authority for that of God.", read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Benhadj#Views. Hachemi Sahouni said that if the FIS won, it "would introduce immediately the sharia, would ban secular and communist parties and would expel the President", read https://books.google.pt/books?id=8v...nepage&q="FIS " "expel the President"&f=false

 

[Ricardolindo]

Stroessner was a long time US ally, and recipient of large amounts of US military aid. Since there was no substantial war involving Paraguay during his administration, the weaponry was largely used internally, ie against civilian opponents. US attitudes to Stroessner may have cooled by 1989 to the extent the CIA didn't help him avoid the coup, but I've not read of any direct US involvement?

The Panama invasion was portrayed at the time as being part of the "war on drugs", with Noriega as a narcobaron in pro-invasion propaganda, and as being a precursor to US retention of the canal in anti-invasion propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrés_Rodríguez_(politician)#1989_coup_d'état says the United States supported the coup against Alfredo Stroessner in 1989.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Panama#U.S._rationale_for_the_invasion, one of the stated motives for the US invasion was "Defending democracy and human rights in Panama." As I said, Manuel Noriega had annulled an election in which opposition candidate Guillermo Endara had won overwhelmingly and George H.W. Bush had told him to honor the will of the Panamian people.

 

[SpanishSpy]

I am now the Sea Lion Press blog editor, and I discuss what I want to do with the genre in my opening letter here.

 

[frustrated progressive]

I am now the Sea Lion Press blog editor, and I discuss what I want to do with the genre in my opening letter here.

Congrats!

 

[Coiler]

There's an interesting world where the forward pass in American Football is never legalized, making it far closer to rugby than it is IOTL.

 

[Gary Oswald]

There's an interesting world where the forward pass in American Football is never legalized, making it far closer to rugby than it is IOTL.

You are the bright light in the darkness of this thread, Colin.

 

[Japhy]

There's an interesting world where the forward pass in American Football is never legalized, making it far closer to rugby than it is IOTL.

TR is left with no other choice and the game dies, much like its players up to that point.

 

[lerk]

I suppose "America becomes a soccer/football country" is one of those AH ideas which never gets old no matter how many times its rehashed. One idea I've been interested in is having it be placed in the backdrop of a Southern victory - British/French advisors bring the game to the South whereas German advisors bring the game to the North. The two have a burning football rivalry since then.

 

[Usili]

This is more-so a bit of a musing for something I've thought and bundled a bit, but it always feels very surprising there isn't necessarily more like, discussion on the railroads and such considering the sheer aspect of like mergers, dissolution, emergence, and collapse that they all had, not to mention that in some cases how personality driven they were. And not to mention in terms of the matter of the US, how much the railroads also tied into heavily with regards to politics throughout the late 19th century and early 20th century and then into post-World War II and what happened there as you saw the shifts of industry and suburbanization, the changes of transportation modes, and how that kind of led on from there.

Like for instance, the matter of in terms of maybe more of a 'minor' AH thing with regards to the railroads from a US perspective but if the CNW had still opted to pursue their own extension to the Pacific rather than being a 'granger' road and how that could've impacted things, especially considering how any such opening like the MILW would've been impacted by the opening of the Panama Canal (and the kind of impact that had on expected goods moving west to east)

 

[napoleon IV]

This is more-so a bit of a musing for something I've thought and bundled a bit, but it always feels very surprising there isn't necessarily more like, discussion on the railroads and such considering the sheer aspect of like mergers, dissolution, emergence, and collapse that they all had, not to mention that in some cases how personality driven they were. And not to mention in terms of the matter of the US, how much the railroads also tied into heavily with regards to politics throughout the late 19th century and early 20th century and then into post-World War II and what happened there as you saw the shifts of industry and suburbanization, the changes of transportation modes, and how that kind of led on from there.

Like for instance, the matter of in terms of maybe more of a 'minor' AH thing with regards to the railroads from a US perspective but if the CNW had still opted to pursue their own extension to the Pacific rather than being a 'granger' road and how that could've impacted things, especially considering how any such opening like the MILW would've been impacted by the opening of the Panama Canal (and the kind of impact that had on expected goods moving west to east)

It's especially surprising because the overlap between AH nerds and anoraks is extremely high.

 

[Ricardolindo]

I am now the Sea Lion Press blog editor, and I discuss what I want to do with the genre in my opening letter here.

Congratulations, Alex.