Least favorite alt-history story?

[Redshank Galloglass]

Kept meaning to post this but given how much they come up here I wondered if people would be interested in this blog post about the Draka?

Deconstructing the Domination of Draka

The Domination of Draka series is something that I have…….complicated feelings about. There are aspects of it that I really like. There are aspects of it that I can’t stand. There…

nathangoldwag.wordpress.com

this is my problems with the Draka to a T. I think some people wrongly conflate Sterling's own beliefs with those depicted in his books, if only because I'd think Sterling would put more visible effort into something if he actually believed in it's subject matter.

The Draka is a smorgasbord of bog-standard sci-fi tropes meshed into an abbatoir of atrociously handled scenes of assault, gratiuitous amounts of objectified Lesbian Sex, and a premise that's basically "G.I. Joe's Cobra takes over South Africa, turn it into Super Sparta, and actually they win this time"

 

[Japhy]

I mean Sterling isn't some Pro-Draka guy but he does have some pretty egregious beliefs.

 

[Coiler]

Eh, I think any attempt to argue about the Draka in plausibility terms is like complaining about how Star Wars doesn't have realistic physics, even if George Lucas later got into a million firey arguments on the internet arguing that it did. It's just an obviously soft story when looked at with a later eye.

What the post does get across and what is the real big problem the series is that yes, the Drakans are horrific Mary Sues in terms of tone. Arguments about just how good and plausible their 120mm-gunned supertank is are less relevant than that in Marching Through Georgia, they have 120mm-gunned supertanks far in excess of what their opponent can field.

What Stirling was thinking either then or later is irrelevant in my eyes. From the original three to the no-pretense-at-anything-but Predator knockoff sci-fi Drakon, they come across as slobbered-over author's pets from start to end (and Drakon shows that reversing the final outcome would just mean 95% Drakans stomping over drooling opponents until a final deus ex machina). And that's the big problem right there.

 

[David Flin]

Eh, I think any attempt to argue about the Draka in plausibility terms is like complaining about how Star Wars doesn't have realistic physics, even if George Lucas later got into a million firey arguments on the internet arguing that it did. It's just an obviously soft story when looked at with a later eye.

Although way back in the soc.history-what-if days, Stirling did defend the Draka in plausibility terms, very vehemently.

 

[Redshank Galloglass]

I mean Sterling isn't some Pro-Draka guy but he does have some pretty egregious beliefs.

Oh sure, but the Draka series is probably the one IP of his where it doesn't apply outside of situational elements in the novels (hence why I mentioned the depictions of rape and the portrayal of Lesbians) if we wanna talk about other works like his Emberverse stuff than yeah I totally agree.

Although way back in the soc.history-what-if days, Stirling did defend the Draka in plausibility terms, very vehemently.

My brother in christ, you gave a 1940s nation, one where less than 7% of the country is not enslaved, an industrial base that not only rivals/outstrips the United States, but exceeds it to the point that Gulf War era weaponry is standard issue in it's TO&E. There is absolutely nothing plausible about your Cobra Commander and Theme Park Sparta take over the world storyline.

Eh, I think any attempt to argue about the Draka in plausibility terms is like complaining about how Star Wars doesn't have realistic physics, even if George Lucas later got into a million firey arguments on the internet arguing that it did. It's just an obviously soft story when looked at with a later eye.

What the post does get across and what is the real big problem the series is that yes, the Drakans are horrific Mary Sues in terms of tone. Arguments about just how good and plausible their 120mm-gunned supertank is are less relevant than that in Marching Through Georgia, they have 120mm-gunned supertanks far in excess of what their opponent can field.

What Stirling was thinking either then or later is irrelevant in my eyes. From the original three to the no-pretense-at-anything-but Predator knockoff sci-fi Drakon, they come across as slobbered-over author's pets from start to end (and Drakon shows that reversing the final outcome would just mean 95% Drakans stomping over drooling opponents until a final deus ex machina). And that's the big problem right there.

A lot of the descriptions of Drakan Citizens are downright pornographic man, and that's not even including the actual sex scenes.

Seriously, it's like Sterling was channeling John Cleland at his lowest point in prison while Barkov and Boccaccio threw out descriptors from the next cell over.

LOOK AT THE HAIR
THE FEATURES
THE PERFECT BODY
IT'S THE WEAKEST DRAKAN CITIZEN

 

[David Flin]

My brother in christ, you gave a 1940s nation, one where less than 7% of the country is not enslaved, an industrial base that not only rivals/outstrips the United States, but exceeds it to the point that Gulf War era weaponry is standard issue in it's TO&E. There is absolutely nothing plausible about your Cobra Commander takes over Theme Park Sparta storyline.

I know that. You know that. My son's pet hamster Sophie (who's been dead this last decade and a half) knows that.

Stirling, however, defended the plausibility vehemently.

 

[Redshank Galloglass]

I know that. You know that. My son's pet hamster Sophie (who's been dead this last decade and a half) knows that.

Stirling, however, defended the plausibility vehemently.

I wasn't around for the era when Sterling was active on places like this, I imagine that must have been... interesting.

 

[Charles EP M.]

Kept meaning to post this but given how much they come up here I wondered if people would be interested in this blog post about the Draka?

Deconstructing the Domination of Draka

The Domination of Draka series is something that I have…….complicated feelings about. There are aspects of it that I really like. There are aspects of it that I can’t stand. There…

nathangoldwag.wordpress.com

I've been hearing about the series and Is It Good Or Does It Suck for years - due to, as Coiler wrote in his article for here, it being an early AH book out at the right time to grab fan attention - but there's a bit in this rundown that sticks out, that the Draka are objectively a master race and win because they're better than everyone else. And that seems to inherently grate with the dystopian The Bad Guys Win angle.

 

[David Flin]

I wasn't around for the era when Sterling was active on places like this, I imagine that must have been... interesting.

Usenet was a place for - um, robust debate.

 

[Earling]

Do we have to be nice about Stirling? I know on the other place there was a lot of "but but but this is how I got into AH" - but lets be frank.
Its a bad premise. They are bad books as fiction. They are ridiculous as AH.
The idea of having "problems" with them just prompts me to think you are respecting them far, far ludicrously far too much.

Its schlock. There's nothing wrong with liking schlock. A huge collection of Warhammer novels taking up space in my flat will attest to that for me (and possibly, biblomania). But critique is an intellectual exercise to which it just isn't worth applying.

 

[Warthog]

Draka... um. I only read some teaser chapters on a website selling the books about 25 years ago, so conceivably the full books are better, but I found it very disturbing.

There's people who write slavery and genocide porn, and then...

All I read was from told a Draka POV, all the descriptions of beautiful landscape were of Draka estates, all the sex (of whatever nature) were between Draka and subject races, or between subject races and those further down the Draak scale - all the sex creepy in terms of power relations.

There's nothing wrong with the bad guy, or troubled bad guy or whatever POV - it's something Turtledove actually does ok - but when it's the only POV, and the protagonists are all people we'd say are sick muckers and want to jail IRL? And there's not much else.

No, even now, the mention of Draka gives me a sour feeling in the stomach

 

[Coiler]

To me, they're just uninteresting. That was what struck me when I finally read the books. Uninteresting in their setup and concept and only becoming prominent by being fish in a pond that was much smaller at the time.

 

[varyar]

I confess that I enjoyed the books when I first read them. 1) I was in high school at the time, hence of questionable taste. 2) It was, so far as I can recall, the first series I read where the bad guys decisively won.

Rereading them about 10 years ago, I found my opinions had shifted considerably.

 

[Redshank Galloglass]

I'm not a fan of them myself. They struck me too much like as being a human version of the Kree from Marvel but with no superheroes to stop them.

I enjoy some of Stirling's work in spite of all it's problems (The Peshawar Lancers is a fucking melting pot of toxicity and gross takes but I enjoyed the book nonetheless) but Draka just wasn't interesting at all.

 

[Lemon flavoured]

Do we have to be nice about Stirling? I know on the other place there was a lot of "but but but this is how I got into AH" - but lets be frank.
Its a bad premise. They are bad books as fiction. They are ridiculous as AH.
The idea of having "problems" with them just prompts me to think you are respecting them far, far ludicrously far too much.

Its schlock. There's nothing wrong with liking schlock. A huge collection of Warhammer novels taking up space in my flat will attest to that for me (and possibly, biblomania). But critique is an intellectual exercise to which it just isn't worth applying.

Given that he got banned from the other place for, in so many words, saying that he would kill all Muslims if given the chance, I think it's pretty reasonable to put him in the pile of "nope".

 

[Arthur_Phuxache]

Still haven't read any SM Stirling books, and am happy to leave it that way. Would sooner read a Mack Maloney book, tbh. More realistic.

 

[Redshank Galloglass]

I will say that I agreed with the article regarding Eric Von Shrakenberg. If there's anything I found compelling about the Draka it was him. The struggle of being a decent human being in an evil and all encompassing system that demands the individual's participation in it's actions is one that has always fascinated me however, and if I had to write the Draka as "unstoppable" I would ignore broader Geopolitics with unfortunate implications and focus fully on Shrakenberg's dilemma.

 

[varyar]

I will say that I agreed with the article regarding Eric Von Shrakenberg. If there's anything I found compelling about the Draka it was him. The struggle of being a decent human being in an evil and all encompassing system that demands the individual's participation in it's actions is one that has always fascinated me however, and if I had to write the Draka as "unstoppable" I would ignore broader Geopolitics with unfortunate implications and focus fully on Shrakenberg's dilemma.

He's definitely one of the most interesting characters in the trilogy. And, sadly, one who fails at the last test. Yes, if he had refused to empty the silos on the Alliance, he would have been shot and it would have happened anyway, but he wouldn't have done it. He made the same decision most of us probably would have, but it was still the wrong one.

Tangential to this, I very much like the old country's Draka fanfic (Proof Through the Night) where the Allies aren't blinded by plot goggles and take the Domination out after the end of WW2.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

As I’ve said before, if the Draka are notable for anything it’s for the genre’s appalling treatment of Africa and Africans.

It’s not just that the portrayal of the continent is racist. It’s not even that it’s stupid. It’s that it’s completely uninterested, turning one of the most vast and varied areas on the planet into nothing but a glorified plantation, that writers and readers alike can luxuriate in fascist supermen having hot fascist sex.

 

[lordroel]

As I’ve said before, if the Draka are notable for anything it’s for the genre’s appalling treatment of Africa and Africans.

It’s not just that the portrayal of the continent is racist. It’s not even that it’s stupid. It’s that it’s completely uninterested, turning one of the most vast and varied areas on the planet into nothing but a glorified plantation, that writers and readers alike can luxuriate in fascist supermen having hot fascist sex.

If you make Sparta survive a bit longer, you got the Draka, but then a bit more realistic.