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Greatest Britain (Malta, The West Indies, etc…)

Aznavour

Well-known member
Published by SLP
Since the dawn of time, counter factual history has been plagued by a simple question: why doesn’t the big country simply eat the smaller one?

While looking at the video for Malta and French Algeria the thought struck me: what if the Imperial Federa



Of course different countries will have different circumstances and there’s the racial and cultural element, but as a thought experiment it still has some merit. Just not sure how to implement it.

A different decline of the empire with a slower, gentler collapse in which countries like Grenada and Malta are strategically useful? A pseudo-Federation in which only white settlers can vote at first but eventually the franchise expands? Or somehow Britain’s circumstances are closer to France’s?

Though admittedly the how and why might be less interesting than the potential consequences, from importing Caribbean and Maltese politicians (and parties) to Westminster to having the “mainland” parties devise platforms and policies to appeal to such constituents (unless they were to develop Spanish-style regional parties that could then be used as tie-breakers in Hung Parliaments)



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Hmm, there is a scenario for Cове́тская Великобрита́ния that I'm considering, possibly as a separate TL project, where something like this eventually becomes a survival strategy for a UK government-in-exile after some sort of Imperial Federation-like arrangement takes place. (Although, outside of Malta and maybe some Caribbean islands and Newfoundland, I'm thinking of limiting its reach to the current British Overseas Territories minus the Cyprus SBAs, just to make life easier, plus making the Channel Islands more de facto independent.) Even then, I'm largely fuzzy on the details outside of the bits I am more grounded in regarding the Soviet epoch on those North Atlantic islands, if much of it is congruent with OTL Soviet history.

But that's probably not what you're looking for - mine is the more drastic solution by taking the Imperial center out of the equation.
 
A different decline of the empire with a slower, gentler collapse in which countries like Grenada and Malta are strategically useful? A pseudo-Federation in which only white settlers can vote at first but eventually the franchise expands? Or somehow Britain’s circumstances are closer to France’s?

I get the feeling that you can perhaps quite easily keep Malta strategically valuable if the Suez Crisis is avoided or handled differently?
 
Malta wasn't integrated because of personality clashes and underlying economic disagreement which comes down to the fact the british government didn't want it to be a money sink who they'd have to pay money for and get nothing back in terms of taxes and the West Indies wasn't integrated because of Racism.

The former is a lot easier to change than the latter.

If the UK was genuinely willing to give Black colonies the same welfare state as the home islands, alongside full voting rights and free movement, independence movements would absolutely be outflanked, at least short term.

But well when Chad Gabon wanted that with France, De Gaulle sent a nice man to chat with them and made sure they knew it would never ever happen.
 
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Malta wasn't integrated because of personality clashes and underlying economic disagreement which comes down to the fact the british government didn't want it to be a money sink who they'd have to pay money for and get nothing back in terms of taxes and the West Indies wasn't integrated because of Racism.

The former is a lot easier to change than the latter.

If the UK was genuinely willing to give Black colonies the same welfare state as the home islands, alongside full voting rights and free movement, independence movements would absolutely be outflanked, at least short term.

But well when Chad wanted that with France, De Gaulle sent a nice man to chat with them and made sure it would never ever happen.

It was actually Gabon, not Chad.
 
Malta wasn't integrated because of personality clashes and underlying economic disagreement which comes down to the fact the british government didn't want it to be a money sink who they'd have to pay money for and get nothing back in terms of taxes and the West Indies wasn't integrated because of Racism.

The former is a lot easier to change than the latter.

If the UK was genuinely willing to give Black colonies the same welfare state as the home islands, alongside full voting rights and free movement, independence movements would absolutely be outflanked, at least short term.

It'd probably require Britain to view it as a too embarassing prestige loss to let the caribbean colonies go independent rather than join the UK fully despite the racism. If it's too tough to make the British less racist, the all-powerful force of patriotic jingoistic ego might be enough?


But well when Chad Gabon wanted that with France, De Gaulle sent a nice man to chat with them and made sure they knew it would never ever happen.

Why was DeGaulle so opposed to Gabonese integration? Was he unaware of the oil that was there?
 
Why was DeGaulle so opposed to Gabonese integration? Was he unaware of the oil that was there?

I know less about French decolonisation than British but essentially integration of a large black population (the country had 501,000 people in 1960 ), which is nowhere near the metropole and is lacking in infrastructure and very poor and so would need major investment is not really want anyone wants.

The French wanted, and got, continued control over the resources but that's easier to do with french companies and french trained elites without the responsibilities of integration. That's what Empires are, they're resources without responsibility. And taking Responsibility is very expensive.

We have a bunch of quotes from the De Gaulle ministry about the Gabon problem to illustrate. French in italics, translation below.

"vous êtes tombé sur la tête ! N’avons-nous pas assez des Antilles ? Allez, l’indépendance comme tout le monde !"

"
You are out of your mind, we have enough with the Antilles, Independence like everyone"

« Nous ne pouvons pas tenir à bout de bras cette population prolifique comme des lapins (…). C’est une bonne affaire de les émanciper. Nos comptoirs, nos escales, nos petits territoires d’outre-mer, ça va, ce sont des poussières. Le reste est trop lourd ». « (…) Et puis, vous savez, c'était pour nous une chance à saisir : nous débarrasser de ce fardeau, beaucoup trop lourd maintenant pour nos épaules, à mesure que les peuples ont de plus en plus soif d'égalité. Nous avons échappé au pire ! (...) Au Gabon, Léon Mba voulait opter pour le statut de département français. En pleine Afrique équatoriale ! Ils nous seraient restés attachés comme des pierres au cou d'un nageur ! Nous avons eu toutes les peines du monde à les dissuader de choisir ce statut. Heureusement que la plupart de nos Africains ont bien voulu prendre paisiblement le chemin de l'autonomie, puis de l'indépendance » ->

“We cannot hold this prolific population at arm's length like rabbits (…). It is good business to free them. Our counters, our stopovers, our small overseas territories, it's okay, it's dust. The rest is too heavy ”. “(…) And then, you know, it was an opportunity for us to seize: to get rid of this burden, much too heavy now for our shoulders, as people have more and more thirst for equality. We have escaped the worst! (...) In Gabon, Léon Mba wanted to opt for the status of a French department. In the middle of equatorial Africa! They would have remained attached to us like stones to the neck of a swimmer! We had all the trouble in the world to dissuade them from choosing this status. Fortunately, most of our Africans have been kind enough to take the path of autonomy, then of independence"

It's also worth noting that at the time of Mba wanting this was within the context of the French Community, which would still see the currency, foreign policy and control of raw materials within France.

Guinea, makes a good contrast to Gabon in that Ture pushed for complete independence and breaking away entirely and De Gaulle was equally opposed. When Guinea did vote for independence, the French went around wrecking everything, destroying industrial equipment, tearing out light bulbs and destroying medicine so Guinea would be much less well off than the states which were still run by French companies.

@The Red has talked to me before about writing a decolonisation timeline wherein neo-colonialism of the Francafrique type is rejected and so the forced deindustrialisation of the Guinea model becomes the standard but it's a bit grim.

More realistic than integration, though.
 
I know less about French decolonisation than British but essentially integration of a large black population (the country had 501,000 people in 1960 ), which is nowhere near the metropole and is lacking in infrastructure and very poor and so would need major investment is not really want anyone wants.

The French wanted, and got, continued control over the resources but that's easier to do with french companies and french trained elites without the responsibilities of integration. That's what Empires are, they're resources without responsibility. And taking Responsibility is very expensive.

We have a bunch of quotes from the De Gaulle ministry about the Gabon problem to illustrate. French in italics, translation below.

"vous êtes tombé sur la tête ! N’avons-nous pas assez des Antilles ? Allez, l’indépendance comme tout le monde !"

"
You are out of your mind, we have enough with the Antilles, Independence like everyone"

« Nous ne pouvons pas tenir à bout de bras cette population prolifique comme des lapins (…). C’est une bonne affaire de les émanciper. Nos comptoirs, nos escales, nos petits territoires d’outre-mer, ça va, ce sont des poussières. Le reste est trop lourd ». « (…) Et puis, vous savez, c'était pour nous une chance à saisir : nous débarrasser de ce fardeau, beaucoup trop lourd maintenant pour nos épaules, à mesure que les peuples ont de plus en plus soif d'égalité. Nous avons échappé au pire ! (...) Au Gabon, Léon Mba voulait opter pour le statut de département français. En pleine Afrique équatoriale ! Ils nous seraient restés attachés comme des pierres au cou d'un nageur ! Nous avons eu toutes les peines du monde à les dissuader de choisir ce statut. Heureusement que la plupart de nos Africains ont bien voulu prendre paisiblement le chemin de l'autonomie, puis de l'indépendance » ->

“We cannot hold this prolific population at arm's length like rabbits (…). It is good business to free them. Our counters, our stopovers, our small overseas territories, it's okay, it's dust. The rest is too heavy ”. “(…) And then, you know, it was an opportunity for us to seize: to get rid of this burden, much too heavy now for our shoulders, as people have more and more thirst for equality. We have escaped the worst! (...) In Gabon, Léon Mba wanted to opt for the status of a French department. In the middle of equatorial Africa! They would have remained attached to us like stones to the neck of a swimmer! We had all the trouble in the world to dissuade them from choosing this status. Fortunately, most of our Africans have been kind enough to take the path of autonomy, then of independence"

It's also worth noting that at the time of Mba wanting this was within the context of the French Community, which would still see the currency, foreign policy and control of raw materials within France.

Guinea, makes a good contrast to Gabon in that Ture pushed for complete independence and breaking away entirely and De Gaulle was equally opposed. When Guinea did vote for independence, the French went around wrecking everything, destroying industrial equipment, tearing out light bulbs and destroying medicine so Guinea would be much less well off than the states which were still run by French companies.

@The Red has talked to me before about writing a decolonisation timeline wherein neo-colonialism of the Francafrique type is rejected and so the forced deindustrialisation of the Guinea model becomes the standard but it's a bit grim.

More realistic than integration, though.

I am not sure it's accurate to say Gabon has a large black population. While the population is overwhelmingly black, even today, it's rather small, as the dense rainforest environment isn't conducive to large populations.
Gabon is one of the most developed African countries nowadays because of its small population and huge oil reserves.
I think Dr Gaulle may have feared that other colonies would try to follow Gabon. Senegal also had a large pro-French movement. However, that would, IMO, be entirely out of the question as Senegal was much more populous and much poorer.
 
I am not sure it's accurate to say Gabon has a large black population. While the population is overwhelmingly black, even today, it's rather small, as the dense rainforest environment isn't conducive to large populations.

It's relative innit. French Guyana had 30,000 people in 1960 compared to France's 46.6 million. So it was less than 0.1% of France.

Gabon had 500,000 so around 1.1%. That is a significant difference.

It's large compared to the areas that France did integrate.
 
Suppose the question is why France felt able to keep Martinique and Guadeloupe but Britain didn't feel able to keep any of its larger Antilles. It's not purely a population thing - in 1950 Martinique had about 3-4x the population of Antigua, for example - but in 1947 the National Assembly did declare it a department unanimously.
 
Suppose the question is why France felt able to keep Martinique and Guadeloupe but Britain didn't feel able to keep any of its larger Antilles.

I have read that the people of Martinique and Guadeloupe considered themselves French. I assume the people of the English Caribbean may not have considered themselves British.
 
Suppose the question is why France felt able to keep Martinique and Guadeloupe but Britain didn't feel able to keep any of its larger Antilles. It's not purely a population thing - in 1950 Martinique had about 3-4x the population of Antigua, for example - but in 1947 the National Assembly did declare it a department unanimously.

I'm not claiming the Uk was more racist than France, both were racist but the UK had a much larger Caribbean population on the whole. If you read any reports on this, you'll quickly see that Whitehall had a huge bee in its bonnet about the west indies. Like pretty much every decision they made re decolonisation kept coming back to that and the fears of integration.

Because the Islands were both very black and very poor, which is not attractive to them. And they wanted as rid of as many as possible. If there were just two, exceptions could be made, but there were many more British islands and so more worry about precedent.

Whitehall also felt that the smaller Islands were run essentially by big men bosses who they hated having to deal with and worried they would have to fund forever if they remained with the empire. The whole point of the West Indies Federation was to make that Jamaica's problem rather than their own. And integration of the antilles was sold to Jamaica on the idea that each island could not fund itself so needed union. They were told that industrialisation could only happen with a Caribbean customs union.

And the UK joining the EEC was in many the death toll for that happening within the Empire. Martinique and Guadeloupe had moved away from a model of agricultural export but the likes of Barbados or Nevis hadn't. Without special protections, the end of imperial preference would be horrific for them.
 
Assuming this was possible, one effect might be greater migration from such places to Britain Proper.

Otherwise, could these odd Caribbean and Maltese MPs here and there come to form their own block and play kingmaker in the event of reduced majorities and hung parliaments, as the Nationalist Parties do in Spain and the DUP did some years ago?
 
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