Alternate History General Discussion

[Delta Force]

Kind of thought about how conflict geography would emphasize the hard/soft AH divide. See, Smithtown's Republic of Oran is thematically similar to Rhodesia, but its geography (and also opponent) is completely different. Instead of a wide open brush dominated by small units, you'd have a cramped mountain and trench line that would become an attritional grindfest.

Now Smithtown was an ultra-soft AH, and the macro-conflict wasn't the point. But I'm thinking in how a harder AH would go for the more plausible "attrition line", while a softer one would have the Force de Feu jumping around in helicopters against guerillas to emphasize the metaphor.

There's definitely room for smaller units to still do those types of tactics. The DPRK has plans for infiltration of the RoK by air and sea. The An-2 is difficult for radar to detect because it is mostly made of wood and canvas, and the DPRK has also illegally acquired civilian MD-500 helicopters that are similar to military models operated by RoK and allied forces. There have also been several instances of DPRK submarines landing infiltrators along the coasts of the RoK.

Even larger units can pull it off. Some of the largest amphibious operations in history were conducted in Greece and Korea and some large airborne assaults have occurred in Greece and Afghanistan. A Korean conflict would be heavily mechanized despite the geography being poorly suited for it.

 

[Time Enough]

Anyone know of the El Mañana series of short stories? It’s shame it never expanded and became bigger because it had the potential to both be a fun Alternate History and diselpunk story that averted the usual tropes at play in those stories.

 

[Charles EP M.]

What are they about?

 

[Time Enough]

What are they about?

Here’s a quote of the setting description;

"The concept is tentatively called the World of Mañana (a play on both the "world of tomorrow" and the "mañana" attitude of the Caribbean) and we're imagining it as "Casablanca set on a world stage". The basic premise is a world where England and France were stunted in the 16th century and the Spanish empire held on longer, resulting in a more Balkanized New World. A lot of smaller multi-ethnic nations without any major hegemonic power, casual, laises faire intrigue, and technology roughly on par with the Diesel era (Airships, Flying Boats, etc.) plus a few "advanced" tech things like Mega Trains.

Tropical islands, palm trees, flying boats…and the soft thump of a silenced pistol in the night. This is the World of Mañana, a place of lazy relaxation coupled with deadly intrigue (they may kill you here, but they'd never embarass you), of patient, persistant progress into A Glorious Future, of sociopolitical and ethnic diversity emerging from the dying remains of the grand empires of old. Imagine, if you will, Bogart's Casablanca writ large, the naïve self-assuredness of the summer of 1914, the laissez-faire attitude of a cafe in Nice contrasted with the frightful panic of a deadly chase through the crowded city streets of Cairo, a gorgeous sunny seascape with a looming shadow just at the edge of your vision. Set in the present day in a world not our own, Mañana is a world of contrasts and amalgamations. Retrofuturistic Super Trains share the stage with “old fashioned” flying boats and airships. Baroque-tinged Great Power politics faces up against radical futurist ideologies, emerging global corporations, and the burgeoning nationalism of a thousand composite cultures our world never saw. Old decaying empires fight for continued hegemony and try their best to patch the growing cracks in their imperial façade, but the center can not hold. It all gives a guy or dame a lot to think about while sipping that rum as the large tropical sun slips quietly beneath the tropical waters in a pool of warm crimson.

Combining the Noir-tinged optimism of the Jazz Age with the laid back world of Island Time, The World of Mañana is a new, relaxed, but sinister addition to the Retrofuturist culture. This is where Dieselpunks go on vacation to leave their troubles behind…only to find that their troubles have followed. Call it “Parrotpunk”, if you will".

Mainly it’s Diselpunk story set in a world where European Empires control America and sea planes and smugglers are the way to go. There a excellent series of pulpy stories that seemed to peter out eventually. I recommend Cocktails on the Street of Bones as a good example of the setting.

 

[Skinny87]

Here’s a quote of the setting description;

Mainly it’s Diselpunk story set in a world where European Empires control America and sea planes and smugglers are the way to go. There a excellent series of pulpy stories that seemed to peter out eventually. I recommend Cocktails on the Street of Bones as a good example of the setting.

All I can find is someone who mocked up a poster for a book cover

Are they on Amazon or a forum or something?

 

[Time Enough]

All I can find is someone who mocked up a poster for a book cover

Are they on Amazon or a forum or something?

They were on the Alternate History forum, but the stories eventually were placed in the Dieselpunk EPulp showcase and the Dieselpunk: An Anthology have a couple of the stories amongst others. The author is Jack Philpott.

 

[Delta Force]

Why are time loops a frequent feature of Japanese fiction but almost never seen in fiction originating elsewhere?

 

[Ricardolindo]

Why are time loops a frequent feature of Japanese fiction but almost never seen in fiction originating elsewhere?

Is this really the case? The Terminator is a famous case of a time loop. Also, where in Japanese fiction have you seen time loops?

 

[Delta Force]

Is this really the case? The Terminator is a famous case of a time loop. Also, where in Japanese fiction have you seen time loops?

The Terminator is standard time travel, not a time loop. Groundhog Day is probably the most widely known story with a time loop.

 

[Ricardolindo]

The Terminator is standard time travel, not a time loop.

The first movie is a time loop. Kyle Reese went back in time to save Sarah Connor from the Terminator and impregnated her, fathering John Connor who sent him on this mission. In addition, the Terminator's remnants were used to create SkyNet which created the Terminator and sent him back in time.

 

[Walpurgisnacht]

Why are time loops a frequent feature of Japanese fiction but almost never seen in fiction originating elsewhere?

Going to have to echo Ricardolino here: leaving aside the slew of Groundhog Day imitators, the first recorded instance of a time loop in fiction is an American sci-fi short story from 1941.

 

[Coiler]

On the subject of time travel, I'm surprised by how comparably few "Go back and kill Hitler" stories there are for all the trope's prominence in popular imagination. One of the most prominent is Righteous Kill, reviewed on this very site. Other than that, can't think of that many.

 

[Delta Force]

The first movie is a time loop. Kyle Reese went back in time to save Sarah Connor from the Terminator and impregnated her, fathering John Connor who sent him on this mission. In addition, the Terminator's remnants were used to create SkyNet which created the Terminator and sent him back in time.

The Terminator is a great example of a causal loop, but a time loop is a different concept. In a casual loop something causes itself. In a time loop a certain period of time is repeated, usually until certain conditions are met to allow those trapped within to exit the loop.

Going to have to echo Ricardolino here: leaving aside the slew of Groundhog Day imitators, the first recorded instance of a time loop in fiction is an American sci-fi short story from 1941.

The concept might have first appeared in a work of fiction from the United States but it certainly isn't as common as more traditional time travel stories. The fact that Groundhog Day keeps coming up to explain the concept is an example of that. You don't really have to cite a particular work of fiction for the general concept of a time travel story, it's just understood.

 

[Ricardolindo]

The Terminator is a great example of a causal loop, but a time loop is a different concept. In a casual loop something causes itself. In a time loop a certain period of time is repeated, usually until certain conditions are met to allow those trapped within to exit the loop.



The concept might have first appeared in a work of fiction from the United States but it certainly isn't as common as more traditional time travel stories. The fact that Groundhog Day keeps coming up to explain the concept is an example of that. You don't really have to cite a particular work of fiction for the general concept of a time travel story, it's just understood.

Sorry. I was confused as the term time loop is sometimes used for a causal loop.

 

[Ricardolindo]

The Terminator is a great example of a causal loop, but a time loop is a different concept. In a casual loop something causes itself. In a time loop a certain period of time is repeated, usually until certain conditions are met to allow those trapped within to exit the loop.

A time loop happened in Doctor Strange.

 

[Jared]

A time loop happened in Doctor Strange.

In Japanese media time loops are common, in American media time loops are Strange.

 

[SpanishSpy]

In Japanese media time loops are common, in American media time loops are Strange.

Maybe. Who am I to judge?

 

[TR1996]

In a time loop a certain period of time is repeated, usually until certain conditions are met to allow those trapped within to exit the loop.

Wouldn't Groundhog Day and related concepts (Palm Springs, Before I Fall, Happy Death Day, Premature, Map of Tiny Perfect Things, Triangle, Source Code, the presumably bad action movie version from earlier this year starring Mel Gibson and Frank Grillo) thus count as non-Japanese media focusing on time loops?

 

[RyanF]

Wouldn't Groundhog Day and related concepts (Palm Springs, Before I Fall, Happy Death Day, Premature, Map of Tiny Perfect Things, Triangle, Source Code, the presumably bad action movie version from earlier this year starring Mel Gibson and Frank Grillo) thus count as non-Japanese media focusing on time loops?

And this is without even including examples from the small screen as diverse as Star Trek, The X-Files and even American Dad.

 

[Stateless]

The Defence of Duffer's Drift is a time loop story from 1904, except the loops are all a series of dreams.

On the subject of time travel, I'm surprised by how comparably few "Go back and kill Hitler" stories there are for all the trope's prominence in popular imagination. One of the most prominent is Righteous Kill, reviewed on this very site. Other than that, can't think of that many.

Stephen Fry's Making History is, I suppose, not very hard alternate history, and has Hitler not be conceived, which is different in consequence to Hitler existing but being killed.