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What if Louis Napoleon felt compelled to go military adventurist like his uncle as soon as he took power?

raharris1973

Well-known member
When Louis Napoleon, the original Napoleon's nephew, was elected French President in December 1848, Europe, which admittedly did have many other disturbances and ructions to worry about, doesn't seem to have erupted into panic about the conqueror's line being back in charge. In turn, he as new French President seemed to run a pretty normal foreign policy. He did end up sending some French forces abroad to intervene militarily in his first year as President, but it was on a relatively small scale and for a conservative cause, restoring the Pope's temporal power over Rome and the province of Lazio.

He waited several years to do something more dramatic internationally, getting himself crowned Emperor by plebiscite in 1852 then initiating the Eastern Crisis in 1853 and fighting the Crimean War, on Britain's side, for a change, from 1854.

In this ATL, he takes a bolder and more unilateral path. There's any number of directions he can go, or try to go, in 1849.

A) One of the simplest and most natural directions to intervene could be an invasion of Belgium, long an objective of French foreign policy. Since Belgium had succeeded in winning independence via revolt 18 years earlier, the revolutionary spirit of 1848 really didn't take root in Belgium. Some small groups were inspired to revolt and some support came from across the border in 1848 but it had been easily crushed.

Here is a summary of the Belgian situation in 1848 from wiki:
Belgium did not see major unrest in 1848; it had already undergone a liberal reform after the Revolution of 1830 and thus its constitutional system and its monarchy survived.[43]

A number of small local riots broke out, concentrated in the sillon industriel industrial region of the provinces of Liège and Hainaut.

The most serious threat of revolutionary contagion, however, was posed by Belgian émigré groups from France. In 1830 the Belgian Revolution had broken out inspired by the revolution occurring in France, and Belgian authorities feared that a similar 'copycat' phenomenon might occur in 1848. Shortly after the revolution in France, Belgian migrant workers living in Paris were encouraged to return to Belgium to overthrow the monarchy and establish a republic.[44] Belgian authorities expelled Karl Marx himself from Brussels in early March on accusations of having used part of his inheritance to arm Belgian revolutionaries.

Around 6,000 armed émigrés of the "Belgian Legion" attempted to cross the Belgian frontier. There were two divisions which were formed. The first group, travelling by train, were stopped and quickly disarmed at Quiévrain on 26 March 1848.[45] The second group crossed the border on 29 March and headed for Brussels. They were confronted by Belgian troops at the hamlet of Risquons-Tout and defeated. Several smaller groups managed to infiltrate Belgium, but the reinforced Belgian border troops succeeded and the defeat at Risquons-Tout effectively ended the revolutionary threat to Belgium.

The situation in Belgium began to recover that summer after a good harvest, and fresh elections returned a strong majority to the governing party
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But how would a full-scale French invasion, back by the Parisian state, in say Feb-March 1849, go?

I would think that it spoil Napoleon III's genuine achievement of rapprochement with Britain, and Britain would freak out, along with others and Europe. I imagine Britain declaring war. However, Britain always relied on a continental coalition, and would one be available to help during the disorders ongoing into 1849? For instance, ordinarily, the Netherlands wouldn't relish having France as a neighbor, but could the Dutch government be won over to the French side if Louis Napoleon offers them a partition of Belgium, reclaiming Flemish lands only lost 18 years earlier? Would the Prussians be up for forming an anti-French coalition at this time while dealing with revolutionary and constitutional disturbances internally and in the other German states. The high German national sentiment of the time could either distract from French activity, because of differences coming to a head over how to constitute Germany, or throw Germans across a wide political spectrum enthusiastically into a confrontational stance with France. Anti-Frenchism for historical reasons *can* be a unifying thread for Germans, but is not a guaranteed slam-dunk, especially when the the Germans already had the Schleswig issue and the Danish enemy to rally against, and with Britain (and Russia) calling for Prusso-German restraint against Denmark, German ears may not be too receptive from arguments from them that the Germans should now turn in the other direction and fight against the French in Belgium.

The Austrians would ideologically oppose French moves but would still be tactically preoccupied with suppression of the Hungarians and Italians, limiting what they can do.

B) Another direction the French could go, likely in tandem with action in Belgium rather than as a stand-alone action, could be an an invasion of the Prussian and Bavarian Rhineland in order to achieve France's "natural" borders in the north east. That action by itself would constitute a declaration of war against Prussia and Bavaria and a concern of the German Confederation and lesser German states collectively. German liberal and radical ambition, still extant in 1849, would likely be crushed between the millstones of Prussia calling for patriotic and confederal resistance by the Kings and Princes on their own terms, and the foreign French invader from the outside. So, in the end the struggle in the Rhineland comes down to the military and economic physical capacities and the populations of France 1849 versus Prussia and the lesser German states in 1849. The Austrians would not be able to contribute much as they reassembled their empire and put down the Italians (which they might not do as thoroughly here). The Germans would almost certainly enjoy financial support from Britain, and quite possibly troop reinforcements from the Russian empire.

C) A third direction could be a French intervention in Italy. This could fit in with the historic Napoleon III's OTL biography in two ways. An intervention in Italy, unlike the proposed more northerly interventions, does not threaten the status quo of the channel ports, and thus has a greater chance of preserving Napoleon III's OTL goal of maintaining good relations with Britain, in contrast to the usual Anglo-French doom loop. It also fits in with his background as a Carbonari boy.

A February - March intervention could see the French intervene to prevent the second and final defeat of Piedmont, a defeat of Austrian forces, possibly their ouster from the quadrilateral, and a link-up with the Venetian forces of the Republic of San Marco. This could result in the ouster of Austria from all of northern Italy and its unification in some federation, with Piedmont as the most experienced member. With regard to Rome and the Papal States, Louis Napoleon can stick with his OTL policy of appeasing the French Catholic vote, being anti-revolutionary and supporting full restoration of Papal temporal powers there. Or, he could decide to go all-in on the Carbonari, support the Roman Republic and its federation with the other Italian states (and possibly Sicily and Naples) and write off a loss of a block of ultramontane Catholic supporters, figuring his margin of victory in 1848 was so large he can afford to lose 10-20 % of it.

D) Possibly, instead of any of the above, a more modest piecemeal border expansion plan could be his method, perhaps simply quick attacks, followed by attempts at quick settlements, to restore the northeastern borders with Belgium, Prussian and Bavaria to what they were in 1814 (so Saar and a few other select areas), and in Italy, while betraying Italian liberal nationalism and crushing the Roman Republic, he could possibly double-team Piedmont while the Austrians are beating it, siezing Savoy and Nice, and setting up a foundation for an alliance with Austria.
 
Does anybody think the Dutch would be up for joining Louis in a partition of Belgium on linguistic lines at this point? Would King William II be interested in getting back some of the land lost by his father King William I ?
 
What if he gradually pursued the more aggressive options, in the order of A, C (including taking Savoy and Nice), and B (while courting the Danes to serve as distraction from the north)?
 
What if he gradually pursued the more aggressive options, in the order of A, C (including taking Savoy and Nice), and B (while courting the Danes to serve as distraction from the north)?

How gradual were you thinking? Does he space things out over a period of years? Or does he do them over a series of months in 1849, to take advantage of the still ongoing upheavals of that year that would over and done with in the 1850s?

Here is a good reference timeline to the revolutions of 1848-49:https://www.preceden.com/timelines/46791-the-revolutions-of-1848
 
I think it might take some time between getting away with A/C and consolidating those gains before turning on the Germans to do B. I'm not sure how time-intensive it would take to accomplish those campaigns, though admittedly defeating Belgium and intervening in Italy doesn't take too long.

It would scare the British quite a bit.
 
I mean, he did invade Mexico and establish a puppet monarchy with a random prince as its head, with the intention of turning all of Spanish America into similar such kingdoms and allying with Imperial Brazil. So he really was planning military adventuring much like his uncle (albeit in a different continent), but was stopped.
 
I mean, he did invade Mexico and establish a puppet monarchy with a random prince as its head, with the intention of turning all of Spanish America into similar such kingdoms and allying with Imperial Brazil. So he really was planning military adventuring much like his uncle (albeit in a different continent), but was stopped.
Don't be that guy. The "isn't that OTL?" guy. Nobody likes what the 'isn't that OTL' guy has to add except for that person themself. Louis Napoleon's pace of foreign adventures, especially foreign military adventures and outright invasions of neighbors, was nothing at like that of either his Uncle or the first French Republic.

I think it might take some time between getting away with A/C and consolidating those gains before turning on the Germans to do B. I'm not sure how time-intensive it would take to accomplish those campaigns, though admittedly defeating Belgium and intervening in Italy doesn't take too long.

It would scare the British quite a bit.

Well he should be able to pull off a conquest of Wallonia, and then an intervention in Italy, all in 1849, to be able to catch the Italian nationalist wave before it all recedes. If he waits too long to start in Italy, all the nationalists and Piedmont will be defeated and Austria's house will be back in order, and France would have to intervene without allies to start and have to revive them from scratch. That is not impossible. Piedmont-Sardinia was down by mid 1849, but not out forever, and was up for the Crimean War by mid-decade and for a rematch with the Austrians ten years later in 1859 while allied to the French and the Garibaldist Red Shirts who rose from the ashes of the failed 48-49 uprisings.

Louis Napoleon makes things a lot easier on himself if his Belgian campaign is aimed only at absorbing Wallonia, and he manages to share spoils with the Netherlands taking Flanders, and the Prussians getting paid off by getting to annex Luxemburg which they already occupied anyway. Not taking Flanders and any of its coastline or Antwerp, is especially important for keeping Britain away from panic overreaction mode, and looks less greedy to everyone. If he instead takes the Flanders part of Belgium, Louis Napoleon will need to work a lot harder and longer to soothe Britain and other neighbors before he can attempt any bold European interventions, without provoking the 'war of the umpteenth coalition'.
 
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Well, I generally like to see how far Bonapartist expansion can go, and I'll all for him playing it smart (which I don't know how historical that would be, but maybe he gets smart advisors), so absorbing Wallonia quickly while getting the blessing from everyone else seems the right approach, and then uses that momentum to intervene in Italy.

In terms of what he does with Rome, let's just adopt what he did in OTL, assuming he doesn't get any ideas from the Belgian intervention that he extrapolates a theme from:

In August Louis Napoleon issued a sort of manifesto in which he asked of Pius IX a general amnesty, a secularized administration, the establishment of the Code Napoléon, and in general a Liberal Government. Pius, from Gaeta, promised reforms that he declared motu proprio, that is, of his own volition, not in answer to the French.

The Pope did not return to Rome itself until April 1850, since the French were considered liberals all the same, and the Pope would not return until assured of no French meddling in his affairs. In the interim, Rome was governed by a reactionary "Red Triumvirate" of cardinals.[10]French soldiers propped up the Papal administration in Rome until they were withdrawn at the outbreak of the Franco-Prussian War in 1870, leading to the subsequent capture of Rome and annexation by the Kingdom of Italy.

The reactionary measures of the Red Triumvirate provoked consternation in the French Second Republic, the armies of which had restored, and now protected, the ecclesiastical government in Rome. On 18 August 1849, not long after the triumvirate's assumption of power, the French president Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte dispatched a letter to Colonel Edgar Ney in Rome protesting that the French army had been sent to preserve liberty in Rome, not destroy it.[15][16] Upon receiving Bonaparte's letter, the triumvirate threatened to withdraw from Rome—Oudinot's successor as the French commander in the city, Louis de Rostolan, also refused to circulate it, perceiving it as a challenge to his own authority. On 18 September, however, the triumvirate made a partial concession to French opinion by offering an amnesty to most of those involved with the republic, except for the members of its government and legislative assembly, as well as those who had benefited from a previous amnesty in 1846. Nevertheless, most of its measures remained intact: the triumvirate maintained its revocation of rights from Jews despite entreaties from James de Rothschild.[17]

Legacy
The Red Triumvirate dissolved upon the pope's arrival in Rome on 12 April 1850, and the administration was taken up by Cardinal Secretary of State Giacomo Antonelli.[3] The hardline policies of the triumvirate significantly increased the opposition to the papal government among the Roman nobility and the lower ranks of the clergy.[13]

So funnily enough, it sounds like he took a moderate stance that would've preserved the Papal State, but was too liberal for the Pope. I'm now imagining the Holy See as a constitutional monarchy of sorts with an elected republican government and the Papacy as its monarch and it's very funny but probably unworkable. Also ironically it sounds like even without the Pope in power, other clergy just ruled in his stead and made the locals resent them even more.

Italy being divided between a northern federation and the more conservative Catholic southern states would be an ironic pre-enactment of what happens in Germany.

From a meta-perspective it sounds like for a timeline or thought experiment we can choose a direction based on whatever story we'd like to tell. Like I said, I like the idea of the Bonapartes shaking Europe up again and curious to see how far the French can push their borders out so I'd choose a semi-successful outcome in Italy so he's not too distracted from intervening in Rhineland next. Speaking of which, can be play the Prussians against the Bavarians, or vice versa, there?
 
Don't be that guy. The "isn't that OTL?" guy. Nobody likes what the 'isn't that OTL' guy has to add except for that person themself. Louis Napoleon's pace of foreign adventures, especially foreign military adventures and outright invasions of neighbors, was nothing at like that of either his Uncle or the first French Republic.
I’m not saying “isn’t that OTL”. What I’m saying is that is that Napoleon III did have some rather insane plans to expand in South America. He was enough of a realist to understand he couldn’t just go adventuring in Europe as his uncle did, and so instead he looked elsewhere. His “Grand Design” to establish monarchies under tutelage with France all across Spanish America and ally with Brazil to “regenerate” the “Latin Race” certainly does have a Napoleonic ambition to it.

Assuming he is able to take control over Mexico (easier said than done), I think you would see France make a push to link up with Spanish American conservatives and push them to adopt monarchies with suitable French-selected princelings. This would likely backfire one time or another - but how much could France stretch its hands before that occurs?
 
I’m not saying “isn’t that OTL”. What I’m saying is that is that Napoleon III did have some rather insane plans to expand in South America. He was enough of a realist to understand he couldn’t just go adventuring in Europe as his uncle did, and so instead he looked elsewhere. His “Grand Design” to establish monarchies under tutelage with France all across Spanish America and ally with Brazil to “regenerate” the “Latin Race” certainly does have a Napoleonic ambition to it.

Assuming he is able to take control over Mexico (easier said than done), I think you would see France make a push to link up with Spanish American conservatives and push them to adopt monarchies with suitable French-selected princelings. This would likely backfire one time or another - but how much could France stretch its hands before that occurs?

If Mexico was somehow finished as a successful French project its hard to imagine much more. Progress being possible. A drive into Central America where you have the least stability is possible and ties into French interest in building a Canal but raises plenty of other problems about maintaining monarchist regimes, even if he was able to build up the Franco-Spanish-Austrian Alliance the Mexican Adventure was supposed to help establish.

It also of course will earn the ire of a United States that presumably has something going on to keep it from even in defeat against the Confederacy, sending weapons down to Juarez. Certainly a threat that will never really go away to his project.
 
What if instead of imposing a foreign monarch he instead swooped in to negotiate a diplomatic end to the civil war, offered a royal figurehead in the spirit of whatever led the Mexicans to crown Iturbide in the first place, and sweetened the pot to Juárez and the Liberals by forgiving some of their foreign debt?

That said, this is a tangent from the main thread of France adventuring in Europe, first. And the Reform War doesn't even break out until 1858 so all sorts of butterflies might occur prior.
 
What if instead of imposing a foreign monarch he instead swooped in to negotiate a diplomatic end to the civil war, offered a royal figurehead in the spirit of whatever led the Mexicans to crown Iturbide in the first place, and sweetened the pot to Juárez and the Liberals by forgiving some of their foreign debt?

There's no reason for this Liberals or Juarez himself. Or anyone else to accept that. It's the establishment of a protectorate.
 
I kind of see this naturally leading to an anti French coalition in short order and judging by the French Army's performance in Italy, Mexico and the Franco-Prussian war I think its safe to say it loses rather faster than Napoleon ever managed.

Bonapartism OG style kind of requires military victories to work.

How many border moves does it take to kickstart a coalition? Consisting of how many enemy states? In the 1849 or early 1850s era? We know that Louis Napoleon's one-off pro-Papal intervention didn't spark an anti-French coalition.

If a move into any of Belgium, Italy, or the Rhine, causes a coalition to form, who is in it? How soon after suppressing the Austrian, Bohemian, Hungarian, and Italian revolutions are the Austrians ready, for example to take on France, for example, anywhere outside of Italy? Are the Russians interested in intervening in Italy, Belgium, or the Rhine, and the local powers welcoming them? What about the Prussians, busy through 1849 dealing with instability internally and in other German states and fighting with Denmark - are they ready to fight France anywhere except in defence of their own Rheinland provinz? Even as late as 1850, the Prussians were still trying to lead the German states in a union of princes outside Austrian control, and Austria, and ultimately Russia, came out against this - "the humiliation of Olmutz". Can Prussia for an anti-French league with Austria and Russia while vigorously contesting the format of German Confederation with Austria, and in the couple years after getting bitterly humiliated by the eastern powers in 1850?

Regarding French Army performance relative to other militaries, well the French Army of the 2nd Republic and the 2nd Empire wasn't *bowling over* European opponents like Uncle Napoleon tended to do in his first couple encounters with them in the 1790s and early 1800s, but the French army seemed on par and nobody seemed particularly ahead of France.

In the 1848-1853 era, the Prussian Army wasn't the well-oiled, reformed machine of the wars of German unification. The Austrians and Russians were tested against rebel armies, not state actors. The British Army, as always, was small and spread out.

Looking at the examples you provided, French performance in Italy? Well maybe no Napoleonic 'classics' were won there, but the French beat the competition, the Austrians, in 1859-60 and forced them to concede to French and Savoyard demands. You did not mention the Crimean War, but the French forces involved there outperformed both the Russians and the British. In Mexico, they didn't do badly for their numbers and political plan, but the whole scheme does show weaknesses in grand strategic design. They were admittedly rottenly underperforming by the Franco-Prussian war, but that's over two decades later, after Prussia's had the dream team of Room, Bismarck, and Moltke working to up their game for a good while.
 
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