Southern Rhodesia not granted self-government in 1923

[Warthog]

Well-meaning, but not distinct or opinionated enough to offer a proper alternative for South Africa. That's both in the sense of a progressive and democratic alternative, but also as an electoral alternative.

The issue as I see it was that the internal opposition to the NP had a gaping hole in it for some years until people like Schwarz and Suzman really showed up. The United Party after 1948 was adrift, I'd argue. It took the rise of the Progressive/Reform Parties to see the rise of proper white dissidence within the old system.

As opposed to dissidence outside of it, of course.

Hard agree.

So returning to Southern Rhodesia, the question I think, as well as electoral numbers, is would SR bring significant talent to the SAn white parliament? And would it make a difference?

Take Higgins for example. In 1930s SA he'd seem liberal, as not NP, but he's the originator of the white man and the black men must be partners, but like a horse and rider

 

[Doctor Sulemain]

Hard agree.

So returning to Southern Rhodesia, the question I think, as well as electoral numbers, is would SR bring significant talent to the SAn white parliament? And would it make a difference?

Take Higgins for example. In 1930s SA he'd seem liberal, as not NP, but he's the originator of the white man and the black men must be partners, but like a horse and rider

Higgens would fit in very well with the United Party, mainly because I don't think he'd be seen as a liberal at all. A pro-Empire segregationist who paid lip service to the Qualified Franchise was, I'd argue, the middle ground for the UP. Hofmeyr had to constantly and publically deny he was a radical and had to publically and repeatedly state he was against race-mixing.

The only white Southern Rhodesian politician I have really any time for is Garfield Todd, and I suspect that in this alternate Greater South Africa, he'd have even bigger problems.

I honestly think that only expanding the Qualified Franchise across the entire country in 1910 would have prevented a slow and steady march to full-blown white supremacy without something drastic happening. I had to make several Big Events happen in Our Free And Happy Land to make the AH work, because the NP only really needed to win once to do massive damage. South Africa had competitive elections before 1948, but not afterward. After 1948 in OTL it increasingly wasn't a democracy for white South Africans either.

Maybe keep Hofmeyr and Adolph Malan alive, and then pass the buck to Todd in the 60s, and then maybe Suzman or Schwarz does the first properly democratic election in the 70s. But again, the trick is to prevent the NP from getting in, preventing their own Gleichschaltung, to borrow a useful word from German historiography.

 

[Warthog]

I had to make several Big Events happen in Our Free And Happy Land to make the AH work, because the NP only really needed to win once to do massive damage. South Africa had competitive elections before 1948, but not afterward. After 1948 in OTL it increasingly wasn't a democracy for white South Africans either.

Maybe keep Hofmeyr and Adolph Malan alive, and then pass the buck to Todd in the 60s, and then maybe Suzman or Schwarz does the first properly democratic election in the 70s. But again, the trick is to prevent the NP from getting in, preventing their own Gleichschaltung, to borrow a useful word from German historiography.

Yes, it's tricky, although the elections of the 30s and 40s were close, and in 1948 they didn't get the popular vote, once the Nats get in they're nearly impossible to dislodge. When I tried it in a leader's list some years back, I tipped 48 by redistricting- but then nothing happened for a quarter century until Schwartz broadens the franchise, and in doing do, cooks the UPs goose...

 

[Warthog]

Honourable mentioned required for Radclyffe Macbeth Cadman, whose obscurity epitomizes the death of the UP.. ...which is sad given his weird name, which my phone changed to Radclyffe Macbeth Cayman, surely a suitable hopeless antagonist to the Great Crocodile

Edit:
I now have Quilapayún's Tío Caimán stuck on repeat in my head

 

[Doctor Sulemain]

Yes, it's tricky, although the elections of the 30s and 40s were close, and in 1948 they didn't get the popular vote, once the Nats get in they're nearly impossible to dislodge. When I tried it in a leader's list some years back, I tipped 48 by redistricting- but then nothing happened for a quarter century until Schwartz broadens the franchise, and in doing do, cooks the UPs goose...

The trick I had in OFAHL is that the United-Progressive Party (the hyphen's important) has its own distinct but also practical answer (Georgism) to the Land Question to distinguish them from the ANC's program of purchase and redistribution (sort of a more state-sponsored version of willing seller willing buyer from OTL).

I tipped '48 by redistricting in OFAHL and then had the NP descend into secessionism and terrorism and then Civil War erupts.

 

[Doctor Sulemain]

Honourable mentioned required for Radclyffe Macbeth Cadman, whose obscurity epitomizes the death of the UP.. ...which is sad given his weird name, which my phone changed to Radclyffe Macbeth Cayman, surely a suitable hopeless antagonist to the Great Crocodile

Edit:
I now have Quilapayún's Tío Caimán stuck on repeat in my head

On a slightly grimmer albeit related note, I've had Warren Zevon's Jungle Work (inspired by Cold War mercs) in my head for like a week.

 

[marktaha]

I think you mean the United Party, the Liberal Party was a relatively minor party which opposed apartheid in the 1950s and 1960s. Alan Paton was a prominent member. The party dissolved when it refused to adhere to apartheid laws and restrict membership of the party to a single race.

There was a ruling Liberal Party in SR.

 

[Marius]

There was a ruling Liberal Party in SR.

There wasn't but if you could read for comprehension you would see I was pointing out the fact that no party called the Liberal Party had ever governed in South Africa.

 

[Doctor Sulemain]

There was a ruling Liberal Party in SR.

No there wasn't. SR was ruled by the Rhodesia Party, the United Party and then the Rhodesia Front.

 

[Jackson Lennock]

*Wanting* to purchase Southern Mozambique and actually doing so are different matters. Portugal doesn't seem inclined to sell the place.

 

[Roger II]

I honestly think that only expanding the Qualified Franchise across the entire country in 1910 would have prevented a slow and steady march to full-blown white supremacy without something drastic happening.

Can you expand a bit more? I'm curious because pushing SA off the white supremacy track in 1910 has all sorts of interesting ramifications for SA, southern Africa, and Africa generally (a dominion and then at midcentury a independent state that's firmly a multiracial democracy or at least attempting it) and maybe for Indian independence too if butterflies get Gandhi staying in SA and Indian decolonization is firmly a Nehru/Jinnah affair.

 

[fluttersky]

There's a large spectrum between apartheid and racial equality, and I'm not convinced South Africa avoiding the former would imply their alignment with the rest of the world's racial sensibilities by the 1970s/80s. I could imagine SA remaining more aligned with Britain for longer (maybe even leading to Britain offloading her South Atlantic islands onto SA), but sooner or later Britain and America will be supporting majority rule and I can't imagine South Africa voluntarily switching to full majority rule that fast without a struggle.

 

[Marius]

Higgens would fit in very well with the United Party, mainly because I don't think he'd be seen as a liberal at all. A pro-Empire segregationist who paid lip service to the Qualified Franchise was, I'd argue, the middle ground for the UP. Hofmeyr had to constantly and publically deny he was a radical and had to publically and repeatedly state he was against race-mixing.

The only white Southern Rhodesian politician I have really any time for is Garfield Todd, and I suspect that in this alternate Greater South Africa, he'd have even bigger problems.

I honestly think that only expanding the Qualified Franchise across the entire country in 1910 would have prevented a slow and steady march to full-blown white supremacy without something drastic happening. I had to make several Big Events happen in Our Free And Happy Land to make the AH work, because the NP only really needed to win once to do massive damage. South Africa had competitive elections before 1948, but not afterward. After 1948 in OTL it increasingly wasn't a democracy for white South Africans either.

Maybe keep Hofmeyr and Adolph Malan alive, and then pass the buck to Todd in the 60s, and then maybe Suzman or Schwarz does the first properly democratic election in the 70s. But again, the trick is to prevent the NP from getting in, preventing their own Gleichschaltung, to borrow a useful word from German historiography.

Can you expand a bit more? I'm curious because pushing SA off the white supremacy track in 1910 has all sorts of interesting ramifications for SA, southern Africa, and Africa generally (a dominion and then at midcentury a independent state that's firmly a multiracial democracy or at least attempting it) and maybe for Indian independence too if butterflies get Gandhi staying in SA and Indian decolonization is firmly a Nehru/Jinnah affair.

RW Johnson, one of SA's greatest curmudgeons and someone who has been an SA watcher for probably longer than anyone on this board has been alive, says part of the problem was that union in 1910 lead to the 'Transvaalisation' of the rest of the Union.

The racial dynamics in the Cape were always different from the Transvaal, and the Cape had the qualified franchise etc, Tranvaal never had those kinds of liberal (for the day) policies.

The problem was that Transvaal dominated the Union (economically and I think it had the biggest population) that the rest of SA became more like Transvaal, instead of the other way round.

What if there had been no South Africa? (II) - OPINION | Politicsweb

RW Johnson wonders what would have happened if there had been no Union in 1910

www.politicsweb.co.za

Not sure how you change that, maybe make someone like Merriman become PM in 1910 instead of Botha.