Marx Dies Earlier and it’s effect on Socialism?

[Time Enough]

But alternatively, it could also go pretty badly due to increased divisions.

Or lead to an unified Russian Social Democracy that's more willing to step up and take power along with agrarian socialists without worries of stageism and a less revolutionary alt-Bolshevik wing without Marx. The internationale minded people probably either get crushed or just retreat into parallel society projects then.

That is possible, given Russia’s size I could see parallel society projects occurring with Russian Social Democrats supporting it as a way to keep the Internationale folks happy whilst the Social Democrats rebuild Russia and all that.

Concerning fascism... I think some kind of petty bourgeois & lower bourgeoisie focused movement of reaction to communism is kinda inevitable.

True, I could see National Syndicalism becoming the Nationalist Left Wing/Right Wing Populism answer to Lassalleans and Communism.

I could see Futurism filling in that gap for the Petty Bourgeois though it’s also a rather odd movement in question. I could also see your usual Nationalist and Right Wing Populist movements occuring too. Also maybe Christian Democracy and Distributism becomes the Religious Right solution to Socialism?

 

[Nyvis]

That is possible, given Russia’s size I could see parallel society projects occurring with Russian Social Democrats supporting it as a way to keep the Internationale folks happy whilst the Social Democrats rebuild Russia and all that.

Oh... If the utopians stuck with the internationale, that could be a moderating influence to convince them to go build communes or educate peasants rather than revolt against the Social Democratic state.

True, I could see National Syndicalism becoming the Nationalist Left Wing/Right Wing Populism answer to Lassalleans and Communism.

I could see Futurism filling in that gap for the Petty Bourgeois though it’s also a rather odd movement in question. I could also see your usual Nationalist and Right Wing Populist movements occuring too. Also maybe Christian Democracy and Distributism becomes the Religious Right solution to Socialism?

Distributism is just too annoying for the capitalist class to deal with, but it could be interesting as part of a clerical fascist movement. Probably with exceptions carved in for "good christian companies".

I think you could easily have two models of fascism.

One futurist influenced, with right wing syndicalist and corporatist style centralized economy that rewards its capitalist backers while assuaging factory floor unrest, mostly popular in very industrial areas. And another more clerical fascist one with distributist economics and christianity as its binding agent. I could see those fighting it out because the futurists' view of society would clash with the more backward looking christian fascists.

 

[Time Enough]

Oh... If the utopians stuck with the internationale, that could be a moderating influence to convince them to go build communes or educate peasants rather than revolt against the Social Democratic state.

That is something, there’s a rather fun idea of a bunch of Russian, American,French etc. Utopian Socialists being encouraged to head to Russia to help found Communes by both the Russian Government but also various Social Democratic Parties. Probably help Anarcho-Communists and Libertarian Socialists prove there points about Socialism too.

One futurist influenced, with right wing syndicalist and corporatist style centralized economy that rewards its capitalist backers while assuaging factory floor unrest, mostly popular in very industrial areas. And another more clerical fascist one with distributist economics and christianity as its binding agent. I could see those fighting it out because the futurists' view of society would clash with the more backward looking christian fascists.

I could see that being interesting and the first one would probably attract a number of the Fabian style Socialists with it’s idea of a Corporatist state. I could see Conservatives supporting both as a way to reduce the power of Social Democratic Parties and Trade Unions only for it to blow up there faces.

 

[Nyvis]

That is something, there’s a rather fun idea of a bunch of Russian, American,French etc. Utopian Socialists being encouraged to head to Russia to help found Communes by both the Russian Government but also various Social Democratic Parties. Probably help Anarcho-Communists and Libertarian Socialists prove there points about Socialism too.

I could also see that being popular with Jewish people, because if the Russian Social Democrats adopt something similar to Lenin's conception of nationality, there isn't a great spot for Jewish people in it, being geographically based. Maybe there's some kind of movement to go build kibbutzes in the Russian interior, with the government giving them some support to get them to fit within their own conception of nationalities?

I could see that being interesting and the first one would probably attract a number of the Fabian style Socialists with it’s idea of a Corporatist state. I could see Conservatives supporting both as a way to reduce the power of Social Democratic Parties and Trade Unions only for it to blow up there faces.

The UK is probably the worst place for it because Labour is still likely to form and have all the unions on the same side... Unless it comes from Labour, of course. I think the Fabians will just align with Social Democracy and the Lassalleans. Considering Marxism never dominated labour Politics in the UK and Engels thought is likely to be even weaker without Marx, I think the Fabians/Lassalleans come to dominate easily and we get OTL Labour to 11 and with less internal opposition. What's left of the non state socialists probably bolt to the ILP and irrelevance.

I could see futurist fascism having a shot in the US's elites. Maybe a business plot analogue as socialists grow stronger and start displacing the traditional party system? Alternatively, Italy is also a place it could fit in easily. Or even Germany.

 

[Time Enough]

I could also see that being popular with Jewish people, because if the Russian Social Democrats adopt something similar to Lenin's conception of nationality, there isn't a great spot for Jewish people in it, being geographically based. Maybe there's some kind of movement to go build kibbutzes in the Russian interior, with the government giving them some support to get them to fit within their own conception of nationalities?

I could see that, maybe we see the Jewish Labour Bund’s of OTl are given money and security to start there own communes. I could a split though within these groups between those who want to establish communes in Russia and those who would go to Palestine or America instead.

The UK is probably the worst place for it because Labour is still likely to form and have all the unions on the same side... Unless it comes from Labour, of course. I think the Fabians will just align with Social Democracy and the Lassalleans. Considering Marxism never dominated labour Politics in the UK and Engels thought is likely to be even weaker without Marx, I think the Fabians/Lassalleans come to dominate easily and we get OTL Labour to 11 and with less internal opposition. What's left of the non state socialists probably bolt to the ILP and irrelevance

True, though instead of a Communist Party you probably get a more unified Syndicalist/Far Left Party to combat Labour which could win a few seats. Maybe like a more successful BSP than OTL.

I could see futurist fascism having a shot in the US's elites. Maybe a business plot analogue as socialists grow stronger and start displacing the traditional party system? Alternatively, Italy is also a place it could fit in easily. Or even Germany

All could be possible, I could see American elites seeing it as a way to secure there hold without losing there power. Maybe it interests various Army folks too. Clerical Fascism would probably work best in Catholic countries like Ireland, France and Italy. Would be funny if Italy is divided between Futurist Fascism and Clerical Fascism.

 

[Nyvis]

I could see that, maybe we see the Jewish Labour Bund’s of OTl are given money and security to start there own communes. I could a split though within these groups between those who want to establish communes in Russia and those who would go to Palestine or America instead.

Zionism was mostly something birthed out of Britain to my knowledge. I don't think it would grow in popularity that much away from it if there's other credible alternatives. Might be that you're only left with right wing Zionism for Palestine with support of the British Empire and a left wing Bundism who want to settle in Russia?

True, though instead of a Communist Party you probably get a more unified Syndicalist/Far Left Party to combat Labour which could win a few seats. Maybe like a more successful BSP than OTL.

I can't see radical syndicalism getting roots in the UK when the vast majority of unions would integrate in Labour as OTL. Labour probably has a reform syndicalist wing challenging the state socialist wing a bit more. But the far left contender is probably more likely to be OTL left communists and the like, including their pretty stark criticism of trade union bureaucracy which would land well with leftist fed up with Labour.

How about those guys? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_(British_Section_of_the_Third_International)

OTL the comintern aligned communist party left them out to dry because Lenin didn't like Left Communists but here they could probably collect some more support from revolutionary internationale aligned small groups.

Though I bet they would be abstentionists, especially above the local level.

All could be possible, I could see American elites seeing it as a way to secure there hold without losing there power. Maybe it interests various Army folks too. Clerical Fascism would probably work best in Catholic countries like Ireland, France and Italy. Would be funny if Italy is divided between Futurist Fascism and Clerical Fascism.

Futurist North Italy/Lombardy, Clerical Fascist South Italy?

Maybe the mess also let a lot of Italian leftists escape to Russia? It'd be interesting to see what someone like Bordiga makes up of it? He could be influential in filling in the missing holes in criticism of capitalism left by the absence of Capital, while also arguing for relentless internationalism, while Gramsci would fit in well with the people arguing for building a proletarian culture to counter bourgeois culture's hegemony, like proletkult. Could play around with Bogdanov, he might not fade into irrelevance with a weaker Lenin and could still be part of the RSDLP.

As for other fascist countries... I can see clerical fascism being reaction's weapon in Iberia, potentially in Latin America too.

Ireland, I doubt it, because lefties always fit well with its struggle for independence. Maybe here the non Marxist socialism makes it easier to have a coherent socialist movement despite the largely agrarian population and you get a strongly unified socialist independence movement, including christian socialism on the more conservative side?

In the case of France, it kinda depends on how WW1 went, doesn't it?

 

[Time Enough]

Zionism was mostly something birthed out of Britain to my knowledge. I don't think it would grow in popularity that much away from it if there's other credible alternatives. Might be that you're only left with right wing Zionism for Palestine with support of the British Empire and a left wing Bundism who want to settle in Russia?

Actually Zionism existed without Britain, it was a European thing started mainly by Theodor Herzl and a number of Germanic Jews. The British was just one of the few folks who were open to the idea of a Jewish Homeland (with a proposal for one being created in Uganda). Also Zionism was mixed with Left and Right from the start, Herzl being a Socialist too.

Maybe Bunds become a thing for Eastern European Jews, whilst Zionism becomes the remit of Western European Jews maybe (maybe the Uganda plan goes ahead?).

Futurist North Italy/Lombardy, Clerical Fascist South Italy?

That’d be fun and would make sense.

Ireland, I doubt it, because lefties always fit well with its struggle for independence. Maybe here the non Marxist socialism makes it easier to have a coherent socialist movement despite the largely agrarian population and you get a strongly unified socialist independence movement, including christian socialism on the more conservative side?

Maybe, Ireland is an odd one. Maybe Sinn Féin becomes a Populist Left Wing organisation of some kind which combines Irish Nationalism with Populist Left Wing ideas etc.

In the case of France, it kinda depends on how WW1 went, doesn't it?

True, hmm I would propose two scenarios, the fate of Socialism without Marx where the Entente lost and the fate in which the Central Powers lost.

On one hand, still feeling rough but the spectre of Nazism and Communism isn’t hanging over Europe so...

 

[Nyvis]

Actually Zionism existed without Britain, it was a European thing started mainly by Theodor Herzl and a number of Germanic Jews. The British was just one of the few folks who were open to the idea of a Jewish Homeland (with a proposal for one being created in Uganda). Also Zionism was mixed with Left and Right from the start, Herzl being a Socialist too.

Maybe Bunds become a thing for Eastern European Jews, whilst Zionism becomes the remit of Western European Jews maybe (maybe the Uganda plan goes ahead?).

True, but Zionism was never going to happen without a patron. East/west divide makes some sense I guess. I wonder how American Jews would fit into it. Maybe their own American Bund at first, but if the US swings into fascism, exodus to either side. Not sure about middle eastern Jews. And I could also see Zionism taking in right wing eastern European Jews if it ever gets off the ground so that's still going to tilt it right wing. Potentially enough that the left wing Zionists give up on it in disgust?

That's all assuming Britain is still interested in letting them settle somewhere in the empire, but I think it would.

True, hmm I would propose two scenarios, the fate of Socialism without Marx where the Entente lost and the fate in which the Central Powers lost.

On one hand, still feeling rough but the spectre of Nazism and Communism isn’t hanging over Europe so...

Hmm, this is complex enough already I'd rather pick an outcome if possible. I'll try thinking about how no Marx impacts the war.

 

[Time Enough]

Potentially enough that the left wing Zionists give up on it in disgust?

That's all assuming Britain is still interested in letting them settle somewhere in the empire, but I think it would.

Possibly but even then Zionism was always divided between Left and Right, I could see a divide in the Bunds themselves over Zionism. But if a Uganda solution was sought, you could get a Democratic Jewish state in Africa instead of the Middle East, leading to the likelihood of the Jewish people having numerous options in terms of where to go.

Hmm, this is complex enough already I'd rather pick an outcome if possible. I'll try thinking about how no Marx impacts the war.

It would be interesting, for starters Communist Revolutions wouldn’t be a defined thing for starters.

 

[Nyvis]

Possibly but even then Zionism was always divided between Left and Right, I could see a divide in the Bunds themselves over Zionism. But if a Uganda solution was sought, you could get a Democratic Jewish state in Africa instead of the Middle East, leading to the likelihood of the Jewish people having numerous options in terms of where to go.

Yeah I was just suggesting it would become imbalanced to the right outside of the Russian sphere because that's one option only the left wing Jews will be interested in. Not sure about Uganda, that sounds wild.

It would be interesting, for starters Communist Revolutions wouldn’t be a defined thing for starters.

Well, I assume the commune still happened, so that will be what people are scared of.

 

[Alex Richards]

I thought people in the 1910s were more scared of Anarchists than anything else at that time- see the assassination of the Empress Sisi and so on.

 

[Nyvis]

I thought people in the 1910s were more scared of Anarchists than anything else at that time- see the assassination of the Empress Sisi and so on.

Depends where?

Though TTL I don't think people really bother making the difference between the commune and anarchists, honestly.

 

[Charles EP M.]

re zionism, I have checked my copy of One Palestine, Complete and coming up is the 1903 proposal of Uganda: "the Zionist Congress rejetced the offer, having firmly fixed its sights on Palestine", and Balfour & Chaim Weizmann discussed it in a 1906 meeting and Weizmann (bluffing he had more sway than he did) pushed back hard. They really, really wanted Jerusalem. That could splinter if you POD in the 19th century and can get a prominent faction going "yeah but we're getting an offer of jam today".

 

[Charles EP M.]

(This will lead to hours of fun during decolonisation when the bulk of Uganada goes "hang on")

 

[Time Enough]

re zionism, I have checked my copy of One Palestine, Complete and coming up is the 1903 proposal of Uganda: "the Zionist Congress rejetced the offer, having firmly fixed its sights on Palestine", and Balfour & Chaim Weizmann discussed it in a 1906 meeting and Weizmann (bluffing he had more sway than he did) pushed back hard. They really, really wanted Jerusalem. That could splinter if you POD in the 19th century and can get a prominent faction going "yeah but we're getting an offer of jam today".

Hmm, interesting. The Butterflies from Marx's death could cause a split in the Zionist Left over whether they go with Palestine or Uganda.

(This will lead to hours of fun during decolonisation when the bulk of Uganada goes "hang on")

God if you get a Socialist/Bundist Ugandan Israel this would just make things even messier

 

[Nyvis]

Hmm, interesting. The Butterflies from Marx's death could cause a split in the Zionist Left over whether they go with Palestine or Uganda.

Hmm. Frankly I really don't see why they'd come to change and agree to it?

 

[Time Enough]

I think one think to mention is that the Poale Zion group which was collection of Labour Zionists and Marxists probably wouldn't exist in a similar fashion. For example, Ber Borochov used Marxism and Dialetics as a way to help explain and call for the establishment of a Jewish homeland. Whilst I'm not saying this wouldn't happen, I could see without Marx, the Labour Zionist movement could possibly be more splintered maybe?

 

[Charles EP M.]

Random though, zionist left could go with Uganda because in this timeline there's not communism (at least not as we understand it) and so they can strike their own deal because they're not as scary to the British government as they might have been if they tried this OTL. Now to Britain, they're weird but they're still people who can Civilise on the empire's behalf.

 

[Time Enough]

Random though, zionist left could go with Uganda because in this timeline there's not communism (at least not as we understand it) and so they can strike their own deal because they're not as scary to the British government as they might have been if they tried this OTL. Now to Britain, they're weird but they're still people who can Civilise on the empire's behalf.

Ugandan Zionist Bundism vs. Russian Bundism is an idea and a half I have to say

 

[Gary Oswald]

It's worth mentioning that the Uganda Scheme is misnamed, the land offered was in Kenya. Because 1903 was when the British/Buganda alliance was still going strong so land settlement in Uganda was much less of a thing due to more powerful native voices. It's not until the 1910s that that changes.