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Irish Home Rule succeeds

You've put your finger on the nub of a major issue here: at the time, was there actually anyone who thought it was in their interest- or the nation's (Britain, Ireland, England, whatever- to work towards a constitutional settlement that actually kept all these groups happy?

I'm far from a expert but wasn't Pitt all in for emancipation as part of the union but King George thought it would be a betrayal of his role as head of the church of england so refused to pass it.

So in theory its as simple as having another king.
 
In your opinion, is Ireland under home rule likely to remain part of the UK until the present day or is it eventually going to get dominion status, and, thus, become independent? I am unsure.
The normal progression is towards Dominion status, devolving power is addictive, but (as with Scotland) I think that the social reforms of the 1910s-1940s in welfare and healthcare provision would have had a centrifugal effect. Stormont never sought Dominion status because it would have meant losing the massive subvention from the UK Treasury and the IRA Border Campaign of the 1950s totally fizzled out with a complete lack of popular support thanks to all the nice new benefits and free healthcare.
 
You've put your finger on the nub of a major issue here: at the time, was there actually anyone who thought it was in their interest- or the nation's (Britain, Ireland, England, whatever- to work towards a constitutional settlement that actually kept all these groups happy?

I somehow feel like this requires earlier democracy or at least earlier "general and widespread accountable government"
 
This discussion does make me wonder if the early nineteenth century Irish nationalist Daniel O'Connell may be a part of establishing this sort of settlement. Now, it is true that O'Connell led the Repeal Association, with the goal of repealing the Acts of Union which he regarded as an illegal act. However, at the same time, he stated that if Irish government was much improved, he would be a supporter of the Union, and beyond that, he also proposed numerous federal parliament schemes. He also stated that he would accept "Repeal" in the form of "installments" - that is, Ireland gradually separating from the United Kingdom through a string of acts passed over time.

Now, while O'Connell was a firm Irish nationalist, he was also an advocate of extreme reform of the Parliament at Westminster. He advocated universal male suffrage, he was accepted by many British radical circles, and he even desired making the House of Lords an elective body as early 1832 - in other words, he was one of the most democratic politicians in the Isles. At the same time, many British radicals were fairly sympathetic to his demands of establishing an Irish Parliament. Whigs found the idea of any Irish legislature totally preposterous especially at this point, but radicals were more open to it.

All of this does make me wonder - if the Radicals form their own party (with a Whig contingent probably) and are somehow able to come to power to pass a reform more radical than the Great Reform Act, would this make them more open to forming some sort of Home Rule-style scheme but much earlier than in OTL? I admit this is a bit of a stretch - I suppose you'd need to further strengthen British Radical ties to O'Connell's nationalists to make this more plausible, and at the same time this would need to get past anti-Catholic attitudes and all that - but an Irish sub-national legislature in ~~1840 would be a very different beast from Gladstonian (or later) Home Rule.
 
That's my understanding, though I'm not sure how Pitt intended to get it through the Lords at that time.

If the King was sympathetic if necessary Pitt could use the same method that Grey used to pass the Great Reform Act.

@SenatorChickpea I'm slightly confused though by your current assertions because back in February I argued that Home Rule would inevitably lead to the dissolution of the Union whereas you were adamant that it was the only way to save it...

For me I think the biggest opportunity is in the 1840s. The ascension of John Russell to the Premiership was absolutely disastrous for the Union and especially for Ireland; get the right person in (and keep Wood and Trevelyan far, far away) and the worst of the Famine can be avoided. This butterflies away the troubles of 1848 and 1867, which butterflies the conversion of Isaac Butt from a Tory into a devolutionist and potentially [1] could resolve the Irish Question for all time...

However, I would like to ask: do you think that anything could be achieved with General Gordon's 1881 land reform proposals?

[1] It's actually rather depressing how throughout the history of Union so many events (big and small) contrived to make the dissolution of the Union more and more likely. For example, take the Phoenix Park murders of 1882. Without the assassination of his brother, Hartington doesn't split the Liberals and the First Home Rule Bill is much more likely to get through the Commons. Getting it through the Lords with an unsympathetic Queen is still a problem, but nevertheless with Liberal integrity preserved the War for Independence is almost certainly butterflied away...

This also assumes that someone else doesn't come along to ruin things. For a very long time the UK has had a habit of having the wrong PM at the wrong time...
 
For me I think the biggest opportunity is in the 1840s. The ascension of John Russell to the Premiership was absolutely disastrous for the Union and especially for Ireland; get the right person in (and keep Wood and Trevelyan far, far away) and the worst of the Famine can be avoided. This butterflies away the troubles of 1848 and 1867, which butterflies the conversion of Isaac Butt from a Tory into a devolutionist and potentially [1] could resolve the Irish Question for all time...

Assuming all of that does happen would it really? Before the Famine, the Repeal Association under Daniel O'Connell was a massively dominant force in Irish politics which launched giant peaceful protests for an Irish Parliament, and its core demand was the Repeal of the Acts of Union (or more moderately, federalism). This is clear evidence for a substantial demand for some sort of Irish autonomy. The reason the Repeal Association ultimately collapsed is because of Daniel O'Connell's death, Young Ireland types who found O'Connell too compromising splitting from the Repeal Association into the Irish Confederation, and lastly because of the Famine causing the collapse of all political activity.

Without the Famine, the Irish Confederation would be massively strengthened by the death of O'Connell. Assuming it does not rebel as part of the 1848 revolutions anyways, it would likely strengthen as a political force, pushing reforms like land reform and Irish electorate expansion (Ireland had a much higher electoral qualification than Great Britain, and IOTL it wasn't until 1885 that it was made uniform) while at the same time being deeply suspicious of both the Tories and the Whigs/"Liberals". This is not a recipe for the Irish question being resolved "for all time" at all.

And on Isaac Butt becoming a supporter of Home Rule, here is what Daniel O'Connell said about him in 1843:

In this speech, O’Connell paid a surprising tribute to Isaac Butt which proved remarkably prescient. O’Connell revealed that he had followed Butt’s reply with ‘a microscopic eye’ and had noted that Butt never said anything which precluded him from being a friend of Repeal in the future.72 This led him to declare that Butt was ‘in his inmost soul an Irishman’ and to great cheers he predicted that ‘we will have him struggling with us for Ireland yet’​

From Liberator: The Life and Death of Daniel O'Connell by Patrick M. Geoghehan.

So people were predicting Isaac Butt's conversion to Home Rule years before the Irish Famine. It is rather interesting, and indeed it does show that this whole scenario wouldn't necessarily stop that ideological shift.
 
@SenatorChickpea I'm slightly confused though by your current assertions because back in February I argued that Home Rule would inevitably lead to the dissolution of the Union whereas you were adamant that it was the only way to save it...

No contradiction: I think that by the end of the nineteenth century Home Rule was the only pathway left to an Ireland that remains linked to Britain, and that that pathway was a narrow and perilous one.

Avoiding Home Rule- at least by the 1880s- is a guaranteed path to the dissolution of the Union. Letting it pass makes that dissolution merely probable.

It's a bit like the Imperial Federation movement. That ideology, at least in part, was borne out of a belief that Italy, Germany (and to a certain extent the US) showed that the future would be dominated by states that had unified their national peoples. However, in the British case, the ideological forces that made the Risorgimento possible were working against the central government, not for it. For Ireland, Britishness was a centrifugal force, not a unifying idea.

I should be clear: a Kingdom of Ireland- even in 2020- is very possible. Most Irish people, and most Irish nationalists, strongly identified themselves as loyal subjects of the crown and the British Empire. Those were unifying concepts. The United Kingdom, however, never was.
 
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Before the Famine, the Repeal Association under Daniel O'Connell was a massively dominant force in Irish politics which launched giant peaceful protests for an Irish Parliament, and its core demand was the Repeal of the Acts of Union (or more moderately, federalism). This is clear evidence for a substantial demand for some sort of Irish autonomy.

It wasn't though; at no point did the Repeal Association gain a majority of votes or the majority of Irish seats in an election, and the first time a Home Rule party achieved the majority of votes in an election was in 1886 (I know this coincides with the Third Reform Act, but still).

Assuming it does not rebel as part of the 1848 revolutions anyways

In all honesty, it probably would still do so, only with even less popular support and a greater failure than in OTL, discrediting the movement and leading to far more moderate figures gaining prominence.

So people were predicting Isaac Butt's conversion to Home Rule years before the Irish Famine. It is rather interesting, and indeed it does show that this whole scenario wouldn't necessarily stop that ideological shift.

With no famine and no 1867 revolt there would be nothing to cause his OTL conversion. Remember, he had been and he was a prominent critic of Repeal and its associated causes for twenty-four years after O'Connell's comments, and he only supported it as he believed it would foster greater unity between Britain and Ireland and allow for better government of the island - and it was the Famine and Revolt that convinced him of this.

Avoiding Home Rule- at least by the 1880s- is a guaranteed path to the dissolution of the Union. Letting it pass makes that dissolution merely probable.

I still do disagree; I believe the only forward step that Home Rule could bring about is a step in the direction of Imperial Federation, but then again it could easily see the Union take a backwards leap, fracturing into three or four states. I would say however that retaining Ireland in the Union peacefully without Home Rule was impossible by December 1910; for me the 1880s is too early.
 
It wasn't though; at no point did the Repeal Association gain a majority of votes or the majority of Irish seats in an election, and the first time a Home Rule party achieved the majority of votes in an election was in 1886 (I know this coincides with the Third Reform Act, but still).

Ireland had a ten-pound qualification for suffrage until 1885, which was five times higher than the qualification in the rest of the United Kingdom; only a very elite was enfranchised. It's fairly astonishing that the Repeal Association won any seats at all with such an incredibly high qualification - it shows that even among the elite there were supporters of Repeal. Quite simply, you simply cannot take elections in Ireland till 1885 as representative of the Irish people at all because of this.

In all honesty, it probably would still do so, only with even less popular support and a greater failure than in OTL, discrediting the movement and leading to far more moderate figures gaining prominence.

It isn't a given at all that they would rebel (especially since the Famine was one of the reasons the Irish Confederation rebelled), but if they did in your scenario the rebellion would likely larger than OTL. Much of the reason that the OTL rebellion didn't pan out was because with mass starvation a large rebellion was impossible; in your scenario that is not an issue.

Second, even if the movement was discredited, this wouldn't automatically result in moderates gaining prominence - even in OTL, fairly extreme people like Charles Gavan Duffy achieved prominence in the 1850s. They even won seats in Parliament despite, again, only a thin elite having the vote in Ireland until 1885. In your scenario, without the Irish political scene having to be totally remade after the famine, people like Duffy would certainly have much more prominence.

With no famine and no 1867 revolt there would be nothing to cause his OTL conversion. Remember, he had been and he was a prominent critic of Repeal and its associated causes for twenty-four years after O'Connell's comments, and he only supported it as he believed it would foster greater unity between Britain and Ireland and allow for better government of the island - and it was the Famine and Revolt that convinced him of this.

O'Connell's comments demonstrate that Isaac Butt's shift was much more moderate than what you are portraying it as - less a "conversion" and more a shift in ideology. For instance, he remained a firm Unionist, he wasn't much of a fan of Grattan's Parliament (unlike almost all Irish nationalists of the time), and he remained a firm Tory (even if one who wanted a local legislature). Indeed, many Dublin Unionists supported some sort of minor Home Rule because they felt they had been sidelined, and Isaac Butt was by no means some grand exception to this.

Second, almost all supporters of Home Rule and/or Repeal believed their policy would bring about greater unity between Britain and Ireland. Daniel O'Connell stated that repeal of the Union would make the Irish people "ready to become a kind of West Britons". Gladstone declared that his Liberals were the true Unionists, and he stated that the Tories and Liberal Unionists were the real Separatists; as he put it, "a union of the Legislatures was the way to a moral and a real separation between the two countries". Really, Isaac Butt wanting to foster greater unity between Britain and Ireland isn't any different from other advocates of Home Rule or even Repeal.
 
Second, almost all supporters of Home Rule and/or Repeal believed their policy would bring about greater unity between Britain and Ireland. Daniel O'Connell stated that repeal of the Union would make the Irish people "ready to become a kind of West Britons". Gladstone declared that his Liberals were the true Unionists, and he stated that the Tories and Liberal Unionists were the real Separatists; as he put it, "a union of the Legislatures was the way to a moral and a real separation between the two countries". Really, Isaac Butt wanting to foster greater unity between Britain and Ireland isn't any different from other advocates of Home Rule or even Repeal.

This is absolutely crucial, and I just want to reiterate: 'Britishness' was not necessarily opposed to Irish nationalism. Neither was the Crown, neither was the idea of having overall government in London.

In that sense, Home Rule could have preserved a 'British' Ireland. It wouldn't necessarily have happened, but the possibility was there. However, so long as governments continued to associate 'Britishness' with the Act of Union, so long as Britishness was associated with there being no Irish Parliament, the strains put upon the isles would grow.
 
Is that where the term comes from?

No, the use of the term pre-dates O'Connell's speech - apparently it originated from around 1800.

only a very elite was enfranchised. It's fairly astonishing that the Repeal Association won any seats at all with such an incredibly high qualification - it shows that even among the elite there were supporters of Repeal. Quite simply, you simply cannot take elections in Ireland till 1885 as representative of the Irish people at all because of this.

This isn't quite true; whilst the franchise was obviously unfair in Ireland the middle class were enfranchised. This brings me on to an important point which I'll get to in a moment.

Second, almost all supporters of Home Rule and/or Repeal believed their policy would bring about greater unity between Britain and Ireland. Daniel O'Connell stated that repeal of the Union would make the Irish people "ready to become a kind of West Britons". Gladstone declared that his Liberals were the true Unionists, and he stated that the Tories and Liberal Unionists were the real Separatists; as he put it, "a union of the Legislatures was the way to a moral and a real separation between the two countries". Really, Isaac Butt wanting to foster greater unity between Britain and Ireland isn't any different from other advocates of Home Rule or even Repeal.

I think you're putting far too much faith in the words of politicians - after all, they're not exactly known for telling the truth. It's not exactly as if O'Connell could have come out and said "we want Home Rule because we hate the English and we hate Britain" because that would have been an easy way to get himself into trouble. And as for Gladstone, from what I can see it's clear to me that he only supported the Home Rule movement because he believed that it was the best way to ensure continued Liberal dominance; after all, most of the Irish Parlimentarians were ideological Liberals anyway and it would explain why he tried to remove them from Parliament in the First Bill as it would have made it easier for the Liberals to win crushing victories after the Liberals were wiped out from the island without being beholden to an outside group. However, this too brings me on to an important point.

However, so long as governments continued to associate 'Britishness' with the Act of Union, so long as Britishness was associated with there being no Irish Parliament, the strains put upon the isles would grow.

It isn't a given at all that they would rebel (especially since the Famine was one of the reasons the Irish Confederation rebelled), but if they did in your scenario the rebellion would likely larger than OTL. Much of the reason that the OTL rebellion didn't pan out was because with mass starvation a large rebellion was impossible; in your scenario that is not an issue.

@Indicus the O'Connell quote about West Britain is very important for my point here. Whilst I am sceptical about whether O'Connell truly meant it, it is clear that he was not a cultural nationalist. In any case, here is an interpretation of the quote:

"Here, O'Connell was hoping that Ireland would soon become as prosperous as "North Britain" had become after 1707, but if the Union did not deliver this, then some form of Irish home rule was essential. The Dublin administration as conducted in the 1830s was, by implication, an unsatisfactory halfway house between these two ideals, and as a prosperous "West Britain" was unlikely, home rule was the rational best outcome for Ireland."

My point is that I believe that people turned towards Home Rule simply due to the fact that, time and time again, the British government simply failed to govern Ireland well enough at the key moments, which again comes back to my point about the UK often having the wrong PM at the wrong time. If the grievances that Irish people were having were being resolved by the British government in a timely fashion (as it was perfectly capable of doing) then there would be no need for Home Rule. Generally, it was the elites and the middle class rather than the common people who had an ideological commitment to Home Rule; from your quote even O'Connell himself wasn't that committed to the cause. If the common people could see how the British government were taking tangible steps to improve their lot, they would have no reason and no cause to turn to the radical options of devolution and revolution, and it would be through this method that they would identify as West Britons. That is why any rebellion in 1848 after a decent British response to the famine would have been a catastrophic failure; the people would look at the rebels and ask "Why?".
 
This isn't quite true; whilst the franchise was obviously unfair in Ireland the middle class were enfranchised.

No, they were not. The middle class in Britain proper was enfranchised due to the forty shilling qualification in place there. But in Ireland, the qualification was five times higher than that - this ten pound qualification was established in 1829 as part of Catholic Emancipation precisely to prevent the middle-class, with its high Catholic proportion, from gaining a dominant voice in Irish politics. Also, bear in mind than ten pounds in the early nineteenth century was worth much more than it is today.

The Irish electorate was so small, and O'Connell's base of support was so large, that some of his "monster rallies" were larger than the entire Irish electorate.

It's not exactly as if O'Connell could have come out and said "we want Home Rule because we hate the English and we hate Britain" because that would have been an easy way to get himself into trouble.

He did not say that because he did not believe that. He was quite strongly tied to the British radical tradition - he advocated universal male suffrage for both Dublin and Westminster (unbelievably democratic by the standards of the 1830s and 1840s), and he was a member of British Radical circles to the extent that he was an important part of the Great Reform Act drama. In Parliament in Westminster he discussed a dramatic program of legal reform and codification, he was involved in the New Poor Law discussion, he emphatically supported the abolition of slavery, and he fought for reforming the administration of other British colonies (like India, Newfoundland, and the Canadas). For someone who hated Britain, he sure went out of his way to try to improve it. He also talked of common institutions between Ireland and Britain - chiefly the executive branch, but he was also discussing the possibility a federal parliament to discuss common issues.

How did you even conclude that O'Connell hated the English and hated Britain? That goes against both his rhetoric and his actions, and it goes against his view of himself as the "Advocate for Humanity".

And as for Gladstone, from what I can see it's clear to me that he only supported the Home Rule movement because he believed that it was the best way to ensure continued Liberal dominance; after all, most of the Irish Parlimentarians were ideological Liberals anyway and it would explain why he tried to remove them from Parliament in the First Bill as it would have made it easier for the Liberals to win crushing victories after the Liberals were wiped out from the island without being beholden to an outside group.

Hardly. He did so for a number of reasons. First, Home Rule was already becoming an important issue within the Liberal Party long before 1884. Parnell was building connections with what he called "English democracy" because he saw their sympathies to Irish concerns, and indeed these efforts were working. Really, if Gladstone had firmly opposed Home Rule, that might have caused a split within the Liberals.

Second, Gladstone had a long-running goal of establishing a permanent settlement with Ireland - in effect, to establish a real union with Ireland rather than one of force. That's why he pushed disestablishing the Church of Ireland in 1869 despite being an intense Anglican, that's why he pushed land reform in the 1870s, and that's why he dramatically expanded the Irish electorate in 1885. His Home Rule bills which aimed at giving Ireland autonomy similar to that of a Canadian province (and yes, he directly modelled Home Rule on the British North America Act's provincial provisions) were just part of that longstanding goal - it did not come out of nowhere.

He wanted to exclude the Irish MPs from Parliament, putting aside his belief that legislative separation would bring about a moral union, because Irish MPs were constantly obstructing business and making things about Irish issues. He felt that time was being wasted and that Parliament should instead focus on other things. So naturally excluding the Irish MPs would make that more possible.

@Indicus the O'Connell quote about West Britain is very important for my point here. Whilst I am sceptical about whether O'Connell truly meant it, it is clear that he was not a cultural nationalist.

It's much more complicated than that - for instance, he lamented not de-Anglicizing his name to "O'Conal" - but it's true he wasn't as much of a cultural nationalist as later Irish nationalists would be. Putting that aside:

My point is that I believe that people turned towards Home Rule simply due to the fact that, time and time again, the British government simply failed to govern Ireland well enough at the key moments, which again comes back to my point about the UK often having the wrong PM at the wrong time. If the grievances that Irish people were having were being resolved by the British government in a timely fashion (as it was perfectly capable of doing) then there would be no need for Home Rule. Generally, it was the elites and the middle class rather than the common people who had an ideological commitment to Home Rule; from your quote even O'Connell himself wasn't that committed to the cause. If the common people could see how the British government were taking tangible steps to improve their lot, they would have no reason and no cause to turn to the radical options of devolution and revolution, and it would be through this method that they would identify as West Britons. That is why any rebellion in 1848 after a decent British response to the famine would have been a catastrophic failure; the people would look at the rebels and ask "Why?".

Well, first of all, I've been delaying this issue, but honestly I think a good British response to the Famine is deeply improbable (unless you massively reduce the scale of crop failure or something like that). If pro-Corn Law types were responsible for famine relief, Peel's importation of American grain would have been impossible (which would make things worse earlier), and you'd still see the flow of Irish crops into Britain continue on. If anti-Corn Law types were responsible for famine relief, their associated beliefs would cause much the same catastrophe that John Russell's administration caused. Without British politics seeing a truly massive shakeup bringing formerly fringe figures into power, Britain's response would be perpetually bad.

The issue was not that the UK had the wrong PM at the wrong time. The issue, quite simply, was that Ireland was a colony of Britain, run by a fundamentally colonial administration centred in Dublin Castle. To colonial administrations It is this which made good government in Ireland close to impossible. Bad governance in Ireland was not a bug, it was a feature.

(And before you argue that Ireland was technically integrated into the metropole, so was Algeria with France.)

Now, on to O'Connell's beliefs on Irish governance. Now, for most of the 1830s, his group held the balance of power in Parliament. As such, he was worried that if he pushed Repeal too hard, it would cause the Whig-Radical-Repealer coalition to collapse and it would bring the Conservatives to power, and he was extremely worried that this would be catastrophic for Ireland. As such, he sought to give the government an escape route - give this long list of concessions, treat Ireland less like a colony and more like Scotland, and the Irish will settle down. However, he thought it was impossible for the United Kingdom to treat Ireland as anything other than a colony, and it was a firm and intractable belief of his that only restoring Grattan's Parliament would make good governance possible (and honestly, looking at the history of Ireland, he was pretty much correct). In effect, he gave the government a goal he viewed as impossible in order to give to Ireland some small level of reasonable governance. So O'Connell views were much more nuanced than what your description implies.

If Britain didn't totally mess up the response to the Famine, the Irish people would still have a long list of grievances. Irish administration would continue to be fundamentally colonial. Ireland would continue to have overly restrictive election qualifications. Furthermore, new grievances with Irish governance would continue to emerge - without some sort of devolved or federal scheme, these grievances would have to be settled across the shore. Constantly having to do this would fundamentally spur nationalism. In regards to the Famine, even if the British government had a slightly reasonable response, questions would still be raised about such things as the continued flow of Irish grain to Britain. The British government doing the minimum thing a state should do would not suddenly make Ireland okay with having no legislature of their own, as you suggest.
 
No, they were not.
Also, bear in mind than ten pounds in the early nineteenth century was worth much more than it is today.

£10 in 1845 was the equivalent of half of the national average salary for a year. And for reference, the Cape Qualified Franchise that operated in the latter half of the 19th century had a £25 requirement, which was widely considered to be fair and reasonable.

How did you even conclude that O'Connell hated the English and hated Britain?

I did not come to that conclusion. O'Connell was a populist, it is a line of attack that a populist would use, but he did not. I do not believe that he hated Britain.

Really, if Gladstone had firmly opposed Home Rule, that might have caused a split within the Liberals.

I just don't believe that this is true. Gladstone was too influential within the party and he'd be on the side of other influential figures like Hartington and Chamberlain. Who would lead the Liberal's Home Rule wing?

He wanted to exclude the Irish MPs from Parliament, putting aside his belief that legislative separation would bring about a moral union, because Irish MPs were constantly obstructing business and making things about Irish issues. He felt that time was being wasted and that Parliament should instead focus on other things. So naturally excluding the Irish MPs would make that more possible.

Which is exactly why the Second Home Rule Bill (drafted in his last ministry when he didn't have a majority and was completely dependent on the IPP) included Irish MPs.

Well, first of all,

From this paragraph and the ones that follow, I'm not confident that a reasonable conversation can be maintained. To put it mildly, your view of history is fundamentally opposed to my own symptomised by the fact that I am entirely sure that you are wrong on this point, and I believe you feel the same.
 
From this paragraph and the ones that follow, I'm not confident that a reasonable conversation can be maintained. To put it mildly, your view of history is fundamentally opposed to my own symptomised by the fact that I am entirely sure that you are wrong on this point, and I believe you feel the same.

Which part of this do you disagree with, and why?

I can tell you that the view that Ireland was, in key respects, a colony of Britain's is very much the standard view in the field of British Imperial studies. The disagreements tend to come when it is over egged in relation to the overseas colonies- particularly with the modern white supremacist need to equate the suffering of the Irish peasantry with Caribbean slaves or indigenous Australians. It was certainly a colony that, in many respects, was treated more lightly by comparison: witness the death toll at Croke Park versus its contemporary crime at Amritsar.

But I can tell you from my own professional work that Ireland was often treated as a place of the racialised other, a barbarian backwater that had to be forcibly civilised, a land whose inhabitants could attain equality with Britain once they stopped being Irish.

I'd like you to tell me what Indicus is getting wrong here, please.
 
£10 in 1845 was the equivalent of half of the national average salary for a year. And for reference, the Cape Qualified Franchise that operated in the latter half of the 19th century had a £25 requirement, which was widely considered to be fair and reasonable.
Cape Qualified Franchise and the Irish franchise are apples and oranges. The Cape Qualified Franchise included a huge range of different types of property ownership, including the communal land tenure traditionally practiced in traditional African societies, and as a result it was a very low standard (so low that raising it became a big talking point amongst certain sections of the political class). By contrast the Irish franchise only covered land owned or rented by a person, and it actually raised the threshold by 400% (previously all an Irish voter needed was property worth 40 shillings). This led to an 80% decline in the registered county electorate.
 
Cape Qualified Franchise and the Irish franchise are apples and oranges. The Cape Qualified Franchise included a huge range of different types of property ownership, including the communal land tenure traditionally practiced in traditional African societies, and as a result it was a very low standard (so low that raising it became a big talking point amongst certain sections of the political class). By contrast the Irish franchise only covered land owned or rented by a person, and it actually raised the threshold by 400% (previously all an Irish voter needed was property worth 40 shillings). This led to an 80% decline in the registered county electorate.

I'm enjoying the way you seem to have spent the last year dutifully studying South African politics of the 19th century. Fully approve of Martin Meredith as a gateway drug.
 
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