• Hi Guest!

    The costs of running this forum are covered by Sea Lion Press. If you'd like to help support the company and the forum, visit patreon.com/sealionpress

How to save Glasgow

J

Juan Vogel

Well-known member
I've been mildly interested in the decline of Glasgow and indeed Liverpool for a while, whilst never really looking into the issue in any great detail but by chance a podcast I listened to on my commute today interviewed some guy about his new book, which has a chapter on Glasgow's decline. See below for links to the podcast and then the book.

His view seems to largely accept what I assume is the usual British consensus of industrial decline combined with poor industrial strategy + commercial decline of the great western port cities. He also adds in what I assume is more original and that is that the above was aggravated by housing policy, in that dealing with the tenements issue broke up tight knit social structures at exactly the wrong time, by destroying the social capital of the working classes of Glasgow at their most economically vulnerable, thus entrenching the decline/impact on the same people.

Of course none of this actually points to a universal solution - although one could posit that a different housing strategy - one that kept the social groups together in a more coherent way would address that.

https://www.piie.com/experts/peters...sode-120-extreme-trade-rise-and-fall-glasgows

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/1114982/extreme-economies/9781784163259.html

So what other options are there and what is the best/last moment where we can "fix" Glasgow?
 
Juan Vogel said:
His view seems to largely accept what I assume is the usual British consensus of industrial decline combined with poor industrial strategy + commercial decline of the great western port cities. He also adds in what I assume is more original and that is that the above was aggravated by housing policy, in that dealing with the tenements issue broke up tight knit social structures at exactly the wrong time, by destroying the social capital of the working classes of Glasgow at their most economically vulnerable, thus entrenching the decline/impact on the same people.
Click to expand...

Noting in Davies' interview, the problem is post-WW2 Glasgow is sitting on its laurels and feeling "we're doing fine" - a recurring theme in talk about industrial decline in the UK. So the best moment to 'fix' it is if Glasgow's shipbuilding companies or the UK in general (and government with initiatives and cash( after WW2 go "right, we need to futureproof, we need to invest and prepare for what's coming to take advantage of how other countries have been smacked up and we're ahead". That wouldn't completely save things but they'd be in better shape.

Now how you get that, I don't know especially as the country's broke at the time. The government does want to keep the Empire/Commonwealth together and not be too tied to the US, but you need it to have the money, have the initiatives & the people doing it that it doesn't have OTL etc

The latest seems to be this "grouping" of the shipyards Davies mentions in the 60s, where it sounds like if this hadn't happened, Glasgow would be better off (though still depressed) and it'd be easier to get out of the spiral. A big investment for a mega-shipyard would be better but the cocked-up plan not happen is probably more plausible.
 
Controversial option- worse bombing raids UK wide in the war meaning a lot more companies have to basically rebuild from scratch with new technology.

It probably means a worse economic situation in the 50s, but might mean things are in a better position overall come the 80s.
 
Thanks for bringing this to attention @Juan Vogel way back in the heady pre-COVID days of *checks watch* two months ago. Having listened to the podcast was convinced to buy Davies book.

May have better thoughts after reading but certainly listening to the podcast it sounds like the loss of social capital in not keeping communities together following the move into new towns had a massive effect in whittling away at social structures though obviously the wider economic conditions certainly had a part to play.
 
RyanF said:
Thanks for bringing this to attention @Juan Vogel way back in the heady pre-COVID days of *checks watch* two months ago. Having listened to the podcast was convinced to buy Davies book.

May have better thoughts after reading but certainly listening to the podcast it sounds like the loss of social capital in not keeping communities together following the move into new towns had a massive effect in whittling away at social structures though obviously the wider economic conditions certainly had a part to play.
Click to expand...

I was going to buy the paperback when it came out (in July. HAH), but had quite forgot.
 
Juan Vogel said:
I've been mildly interested in the decline of Glasgow and indeed Liverpool for a while, whilst never really looking into the issue in any great detail but by chance a podcast I listened to on my commute today interviewed some guy about his new book, which has a chapter on Glasgow's decline. See below for links to the podcast and then the book.

His view seems to largely accept what I assume is the usual British consensus of industrial decline combined with poor industrial strategy + commercial decline of the great western port cities. He also adds in what I assume is more original and that is that the above was aggravated by housing policy, in that dealing with the tenements issue broke up tight knit social structures at exactly the wrong time, by destroying the social capital of the working classes of Glasgow at their most economically vulnerable, thus entrenching the decline/impact on the same people.

Of course none of this actually points to a universal solution - although one could posit that a different housing strategy - one that kept the social groups together in a more coherent way would address that.

https://www.piie.com/experts/peters...sode-120-extreme-trade-rise-and-fall-glasgows

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/1114982/extreme-economies/9781784163259.html

So what other options are there and what is the best/last moment where we can "fix" Glasgow?
Click to expand...

I thought Glasgow had been....saved? Liverpool basically copied Glasgows regeneration pattern, including applying for the Capital of Culture (Glasgow and Liverpool are surely the most succesful examples of riding on the back of that to get as much regeneration money as they could) and now seems to be doing rather well-and in addition to reinventing itself as a must see tourist place, seems to be rediscovering some of its maritime focus-its port is booming and growing, and, whatever people think of Brexit in general, the UK will be free of the EU ports directives which did such damage to the west coast ports (so, Glasgow included), which must surely be something of a benefit for the Ports of Liverpool and Glasgow (and Bristol, Belfast, and probably some others i cant remember).

Additionally for Liverpool (or more accurately Merseyside), its other big industry, the shipyards, seem to have stabilised themselves by diversifying-nowadays, Cammell Laird is more of a ship repairer than a ship builder, and is more likely to churn out wind turbines than warships, but whatever keeps them open i suppose.
 
It isn't really an issue with current day Glasgow/Liverpool - more to do with their decline till recent times - say WW1-1970s.

Going from two of the busiest/richest cities in the Empire to whatever they were at the apogee of decline.

I have never looked at any port regulation, UK or otherwise,but the one they all complain about in a quick google is a newish onefrom 2017.

On a related point I wasl istening to a radio show about food supply chains (maybe BBC R4 farming show) last week and they mentioned in passing that Scotland doesn't have any proper ports so far as high volume food/ag freight is concerned, although they didn't list examples of what they deemed to be proper so who knows if that's a technical classification or just the opinion of that freight specialist.
 
Juan Vogel said:
It isn't really an issue with current day Glasgow/Liverpool - more to do with their decline till recent times - say WW1-1970s.

Going from two of the busiest/richest cities in the Empire to whatever they were at the apogee of decline.
Click to expand...

There's an interesting parallel history to be written on the respective declines of Belfast, Glasgow and Liverpool, each in their own way one of the claimants to Second City of the Empire, each having shipbuilding as a major industry and each having strong trade links with the rest of the world, each having their own issues with sectarianism, each having their own individual decline but the recurrent issues of home rule/devolution/local government, radical politics, religious and later racial divides.
 
Juan Vogel said:
On a related point I wasl istening to a radio show about food supply chains (maybe BBC R4 farming show) last week and they mentioned in passing that Scotland doesn't have any proper ports so far as high volume food/ag freight is concerned
Click to expand...

Weirdly enough I was just looking up possible Scottish ports as objectives for a goofy "Sea Bear North" Soviet naval invasion.
 
Juan Vogel said:
... by chance a podcast I listened to on my commute today interviewed some guy about his new book, which has a chapter on Glasgow's decline.
Click to expand...
Huh, think I have an unread copy of that book laying about somewhere. Will have to dig it out.
 
RyanF said:
There's an interesting parallel history to be written on the respective declines of Belfast, Glasgow and Liverpool, each in their own way one of the claimants to Second City of the Empire, each having shipbuilding as a major industry and each having strong trade links with the rest of the world, each having their own issues with sectarianism, each having their own individual decline but the recurrent issues of home rule/devolution/local government, radical politics, religious and later racial divides.
Click to expand...

There's also an interesting transatlantic history to be written on the decline of the Rust Belt cities(especially Detroit, Chicago*, Cleveland, Toledo, etc-both major centers of industry and shared industries relating to heavy manufacturing, and both with parallel ethnic divides(although in the US usually racial rather than sectarian lines).

EDIT: As well as the home rule issues given relationships to state governments and the formation of suburban municipalities.
*I asterixed Chicago because it weathered the decline of Midwestern industry better than most of the other cities and has recovered better, in large part because IIRC its industrial decline was not all at once and in part because it was able to attract white-collar industries better than most.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top