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How do you get a Tito style Britain?

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Time Enough

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So this isn't the most serious of scenarios but how could you get a Titoist style British Isles?

I'm guessing Nye Bevan would be the best candidate since his relationship with Yugoslavia is well known, also I'm guess the mixture of Worker Democracy and Authoritarian rule would have intresting effects of British society.

Also this inspired by this article I read which was about the British Labour Party's relationship with Yugoslavia from 1950-1961.
 
This is very interesting indeed and something I remember pondering back during my undergraduate dissertation when I briefly looked at links between Titoism and the policy debates on the Labour left in the ‘50s and ‘60s.

It’s a difficult one in that I think it will require some major changes to the Second World War in order that Britain is able to exist in the Tito mould for more than a millisecond. If we were to, say, have had a Popular Front government leading Britain during the war then the idea of a Cripps-Bevan leadership would definitely have produced some of the necessary theoretical development for such a scenario. It requires the USA to be less involved, I should think, but also the Soviets not breathing down Britain’s neck from all sides. In that respect, it’s a tricky one.

Also: Konni Zilliacus and Frank Allaun would be important players in any such regime, I should think. Mikardo too.
 
Comisario said:
It’s a difficult one in that I think it will require some major changes to the Second World War in order that Britain is able to exist in the Tito mould for more than a millisecond. If we were to, say, have had a Popular Front government leading Britain during the war then the idea of a Cripps-Bevan leadership would definitely have produced some of the necessary theoretical development for such a scenario. It requires the USA to be less involved, I should think, but also the Soviets not breathing down Britain’s neck from all sides. In that respect, it’s a tricky one.
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So this is pretty barebones but I have an idea:

So a popular front government is formed in Britian under Bevan and Cripps, how I don't know.

Stalin suffers a stroke in 1943, whilst he doesn't die an unstable Troika of Molotov, Beria and Bulganin rules for the next few years.

FDR dies in 1944, Wallace succeeds him.

Post World War 2, America turns away from Europe in aftermath as the deal with internal struggles whilst the Soviet Union is more interested with a power struggle forming between Beria and Molotov/Bulganin. Britain looking for an ally to help rebuild finds one in the form of Tito and the two become close.

This isn't a great timeline but I could see a British-Yugoslavia partnership formed, maybe with additional ally with Israel.
 
Okay so let's imagine that Britain's economic recovery goes even worse than OTL and it goes fully market socialist after WWII. It could try to form a bloc with Yugoslavia, but I think there would be massive pressure to move towards the USSR. OTL Yugoslavia quietly made up with the Soviets in the 1960s. While it never became a member of the Warsaw Pact, it became an associate member of COMECON and effectively reintegrated itself economically with the socialist world. Britain would probably face pressure to do the same, but I imagine a nation that powerful would be less inclined to accept any form of Soviet hegemonism. The alternative then would be Albania-style continued isolation, which would make a pretty cool TL, or China-style integration into the capitalist world.
 
It does strike me that 'definitely socialist Britain being more friendly with the USSR' could also bring in India as a potential ally, if not some of the ex-colonies in the Middle East and Africa- Nyerere in Tanzania for example? Maybe Italy as well?

I wonder if you'd have a coherent and large enough bloc there that they could give meaningful support to Hungary in a '56 style situation before the Soviets have had chance to react...
 
d32123 said:
Okay so let's imagine that Britain's economic recovery goes even worse than OTL and it goes fully market socialist after WWII. It could try to form a bloc with Yugoslavia, but I think there would be massive pressure to move towards the USSR. OTL Yugoslavia quietly made up with the Soviets in the 1960s. While it never became a member of the Warsaw Pact, it became an associate member of COMECON and effectively reintegrated itself economically with the socialist world. Britain would probably face pressure to do the same, but I imagine a nation that powerful would be less inclined to accept any form of Soviet hegemonism. The alternative then would be Albania-style continued isolation, which would make a pretty cool TL, or China-style integration into the capitalist world.
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That would be an interesting timeline, an Albania style Britian would be interesting and also completely bonkers. I could see Britian joining a non-aligned pact if things get bad. Also I wonder how France and Italy would react.

As @Alex Richards mentioned Italy depending on who runs it (maybe a Left Coalition) could lead to the allying with Britian.
Alex Richards said:
I wonder if you'd have a coherent and large enough bloc there that they could give meaningful support to Hungary in a '56 style situation before the Soviets have had chance to react...
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It would be an interesting Cold War if it ends up being the Soviet Union vs. A Market Socialist/EuroCommunist/Kibbutz bloc of Britian, Israel, India, Italy, Hungry etc. Vs. Maoist China Vs. Capitalist America and other sundries would interesting.

Despite the Bevanites being Anti-Bomb I could see Britain under Bevan having a shared Britian-Yugosalvia Atom Bomb project.
 
If things get going in the 1930s and 1940s, Tom Wintringham and his hopes of building the *Home Guard into a Peoples Militia would be worth looking into. For a little stub I wrote I actually imagined him as an ersatz Tito in a "Nazis conquer Britain, they eventually pull out due to partisans and continental pressures, letting Tom's Boys seize control" story.

He and his coterie were very influenced by their experience in the SCW, both in terms of politics/economics and distrust of the Soviets. As long as Britain isn't an outright puppet and has something of a fleet/air force to make Moscow think twice (assuming they have dominance of the continent), I imagine splits would happen pretty quickly.

In turn Britain would certainly invest in an atomic bomb for extra security. Unilateralism is a bourgeois luxury such a regime could not afford.

I often think realpolitik gets overlooked in "X country goes communist" TLs, assuming they will just focus on world revolution over national interests. If Red Britain is independent but threatened by a Soviet bloc and hence basically isolated, it will look for friends where they can find them. For economic reasons, the United States would be approached (or might approach them) as Atlantic trade will still be very important and they have an obvious mutual enemy in Moscow.

Britain's involvement in former colonies would be interesting. If it ends up a member of NAM and is 'safe' under a nuclear umbrella, Britain could end up playing a similar role to Cuba in Africa - only they're not towing a Marxist-Leninist line and could be decidedly anti-Moscow much to the Soviets' impotent fury.

EDIT: Where would Orwell end up in such a world?
 
Electric Sheep said:
What would happen to Northern Ireland in this scenario? I doubt the Ulster Unionists would be too keen on a socialist Britain.
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Probably be returned back to Ireland. The Socialists in the Labour Party often thought up plans about how to sort out Northern Ireland and it usually involved eventually handing it back to Ireland, usually with a "It's your problem now" style attitude.
 
Electric Sheep said:
What would happen to Northern Ireland in this scenario? I doubt the Ulster Unionists would be too keen on a socialist Britain.
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Depends on whether they value the Union over ideology. After all, the UUP somehow managed alright with Labour Governments at Westminster. Otherwise, it would probably involve shopping around for a British government-in-exile to latch onto.
 
Charles EP M. said:
the UDI Kingdom of Britain (Ulster's Democratic Independent), full of aging expats and Northern Irish firebrands declaring "one day, we'll reclaim the lost land" while teenagers are sneaking over the border to go to nightclubs
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"Those damn youths and there damn Yugopop, why don't they listen to the sash my father wore instead like true Ulster folk"

I'm imagining the U.S. keeping a force there like South Korea just in case.
 
Time Enough said:
So a popular front government is formed in Britian under Bevan and Cripps, how I don't know.
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Nearly happened IOTL in 1942 after the (2nd) fall of Tobruk and the surrender of Singapore/sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse.

Churchill was apparently at death's door in Carthage in December 1943, but recovered. Eden would have taken over, but how impressive would he have been?
 
Arthur_Phuxache said:
Nearly happened IOTL in 1942 after the (2nd) fall of Tobruk and the surrender of Singapore/sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse.

Churchill was apparently at death's door in Carthage in December 1943, but recovered. Eden would have taken over, but how impressive would he have been?
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On the Singapore note, the immediate reaction to that is in fact the PoD to my redux of Comrade Cripps. Specifically, Lord Woolton’s letter of resignation that he was threatening to send to Churchill the evening of the news of Singapore’s fall and which was expected to bring down the government actually gets sent rather than having him sleeping on it and deciding against the following morning.

It was basically expected by anyone who was anyone, from the highest of the military staff to the citizens in the street who were often polled as to their possible preferences for a post-Churchill leadership. Cripps and Eden vied for the top spot, though Eden was keen to let Cripps do the job in early ‘42 and specifically described himself as a ‘Crippsite’ in private conversation.
 
Comisario said:
On the Singapore note, the immediate reaction to that is in fact the PoD to my redux of Comrade Cripps. Specifically, Lord Woolton’s letter of resignation that he was threatening to send to Churchill the evening of the news of Singapore’s fall and which was expected to bring down the government actually gets sent rather than having him sleeping on it and deciding against the following morning.

It was basically expected by anyone who was anyone, from the highest of the military staff to the citizens in the street who were often polled as to their possible preferences for a post-Churchill leadership. Cripps and Eden vied for the top spot, though Eden was keen to let Cripps do the job in early ‘42 and specifically described himself as a ‘Crippsite’ in private conversation.
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Interesting, never knew any of that. Thanks!
 
Comisario said:
It was basically expected by anyone who was anyone, from the highest of the military staff to the citizens in the street who were often polled as to their possible preferences for a post-Churchill leadership. Cripps and Eden vied for the top spot, though Eden was keen to let Cripps do the job in early ‘42 and specifically described himself as a ‘Crippsite’ in private conversation.
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This is not only interesting but also probably the only way to also get Cripps as leader of the Labour Party too with a Attlee being couped for the more charismatic leader as soon as possible.

Or maybe the remains of ILP, Common Wealth Party and Cripps plus Conservative and Labour defectors create some bizarre popular front Government in 43. Still Cripps as leader also increases the chances of Bevan as leader which as pointed earlier would probably help lead Britian towards a Yugosalvia Common Ownership system (without the Authoritarianism).
Charles EP M. said:
Now imagine the fun of trying to both support UDI and keep Ireland happy and placate the diaspora communities in the US itself.
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It would be amusing at least, I can imagine they deliberately not send Americans of Irish descent after a few start helping the wrong groups.
 
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