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GOTS: No South African Contact?

ChrisNuttall

Well-known member
I was rereading The Guns of the South tropes page in preparation for an article I’m planning and it raised an interesting point.

Why didn’t the Riverton Men/AWB go to South Africa and make contract with their ancestors? Helping the CSA might make sense, because the Boers would need allies, but why not get to South Africa after the end of the war?

Maybe they did. They had the time and money to purchase a ship after the end of the war and set sail for South Africa, and the tech to give any prowling US/UK warship a very hard time. They could easily have loaded up a ship with all the tech goodies they could, then gone south and made contact and then …

Story seed there, for anyone who wants it?

Chris
 
I have to wonder where the AWB would land this ship though. The British would be keeping a close eye on them after they helped the CSA win their independence by seemingly mass producing the AK-47s out of nowhere, so I doubt that Rhoodie and his compatriots would be able to land in Cape Town. The closest port to the Boer republics of the time, Lourenço Marques (now Maputo), was claimed by the British in 1861 and was still under diplomatic dispute with Portugal until 1875. Though Pretorius of Transvaal is due to claim the area as well in 1868 to give them access to the sea.

I suppose their best bet would be the raw settlement of Durban, though I doubt the AWB would be happy about all the recent workers from India imported to the town. Still, they could buy up land and establish a base from which to contact the Orange Free State and the Transvaal, most probably contacting Pretorius and fostering his dreams of uniting the two Boer states despite British threats to allow the tribes of the interior to go after them. With the AK-47s, machine guns, rifle grenades, land mines, and whatever other weapons the AWB have brought back from their 2014, the Boers would have little to fear. Their big problem is that their supply line from the future is in North Carolina, by land through British-controlled territory to Durban (until they can back Pretorius in seizing Lourenço Marques, which would probably bring open conflict with the British and Portugese) and across the South and North Atlantic to the CSA, and then by train to Rivington. Presumably the Rivington, North Carolina of 2014 was the most covenient place the AWB could establish their time machine as they're outlawed in the South Africa of their future, and cutting the link to move it might cut them off entirely from the new timeline they've already put so much work into establishing.

Their best bet would be to bring machine tools through the time machine, haul them to the Boer Republics, and then "invent" and have them start producing an earlier but still potent repeating rifle to arm the Boers with and have a stockpile of AK-47s and clips to fall back on. Perhaps a rifle from the 1880s, maybe something from the Boer War to speak to the AWB's sense of historical justice, then annex Lourenço Marques and bleed the British, Portugese, and the tribes until London and Lisbon reluctantly allow the Boers to have their own state with access to a port, and a new ally for the AWB's influence in the CSA. And if things go as they did in the book, a bolthole for the AWB to escape to if things go badly for them in the CSA, perhaps inviting Confederates that feel alienated by Lee's policies to move there with them.
 
I was rereading The Guns of the South tropes page in preparation for an article I’m planning and it raised an interesting point.

Why didn’t the Riverton Men/AWB go to South Africa and make contract with their ancestors? Helping the CSA might make sense, because the Boers would need allies, but why not get to South Africa after the end of the war?

Maybe they did. They had the time and money to purchase a ship after the end of the war and set sail for South Africa, and the tech to give any prowling US/UK warship a very hard time. They could easily have loaded up a ship with all the tech goodies they could, then gone south and made contact and then …

Story seed there, for anyone who wants it?

Chris
David Bar Elias did a "TL-191 After The End" scenario awhile back, and I've long thought GOTS deserves a similar treatment. Adding a Psuedo-Draka would be a pretty interesting turn!
 
Ironically the AWB helping the Confederates does make sense, but in an unexpected way - without the Union victory in the US Civil War, Britain probably wouldn't have tried to unite the Canadian colonies for defence, which in turn means that Canadian confederation wouldn't have inspired the Foreign Office and colonial administrators to try to unite South Africa, which would potentially avert or delay a British confrontation with the Boers and lead to continuing independent Afrikaner states...

Not sure if Turtledove thought of that though.
 
Thinking about a Post-GOTS world ...

The aftermath of slavery is going to be a nightmare. Many slaves were already liberated by the Northern armies and were either taken north with them (i hope) or at least given guns to continue an insurgent war. Freeing all the remaining slaves is a good deed, but what do they do with the ex-slaves? They need to get the plantations up and running to supply cotton to the UK, which means a great many slaves will be re-enslaved in all but name.

Worse, the UK might not want CSA cotton and poor whites won't want black competition (this was already happening in GOTS). This isn't going to end well for anyone.

On the other hand, the CSA has one hell of a windfall of future tech ... but less ability to use it and put their own versions of such tech into mass production. The USA was already developing AK-47s of its own; it won't be long before the other powers do the same. Can they trade with the UK or France? France is a possibility because the Mexican Intervention was still underway - in this timeline, the US has less ability to meddle - and the two powers can come to some agreement.

That said, the detailed future history is already largely useless - the CSA didn't win its freedom in OTL. Tech, on the other hand, will spread rapidly.

Frankly, I think the CSA will be very lucky to hold together at all. They were never a united power, at least not as united as they claimed, and while the war will have given them a sense of nationhood the post-war world will challenge it. They'll resist the growth of centralised power, and the confederate government will have problems pushing back; they'll be short on money, which means funding an army will be difficult.

Thoughts?
 
Ironically the AWB helping the Confederates does make sense, but in an unexpected way - without the Union victory in the US Civil War, Britain probably wouldn't have tried to unite the Canadian colonies for defence, which in turn means that Canadian confederation wouldn't have inspired the Foreign Office and colonial administrators to try to unite South Africa, which would potentially avert or delay a British confrontation with the Boers and lead to continuing independent Afrikaner states...
The aftermath of slavery is going to be a nightmare. Many slaves were already liberated by the Northern armies and were either taken north with them (i hope) or at least given guns to continue an insurgent war. Freeing all the remaining slaves is a good deed, but what do they do with the ex-slaves? They need to get the plantations up and running to supply cotton to the UK, which means a great many slaves will be re-enslaved in all but name.

Frankly, I think the CSA will be very lucky to hold together at all. They were never a united power, at least not as united as they claimed, and while the war will have given them a sense of nationhood the post-war world will challenge it. They'll resist the growth of centralised power, and the confederate government will have problems pushing back; they'll be short on money, which means funding an army will be difficult.

In GOTS, George McClellan and others advocated the annexation of the Canadas during the 1864 election, calls which apparently kept going even after Horatio Seymour was elected. By 1866, the British started increasing the size of its garrisons in the Canadas to the point that Seymour pulled US forces out of the New Mexico and Arizona Territories where they had been stationed as a show of support to the rebellion against French-backed Maximilian, and war broke out between Britain and the US later that year. Starting to field their own version of the AK-47, US forces took and occupied the Canadas, but the Royal Navy reigned supreme at sea, shelling cities along both the East and West coasts as the war dragged on for at least a year as the US captured territories further west, though the outcome appeared to favor the US keeping the Canadas in any subsequent peace deal.

The US did take some of the liberated slaves back north, and did arm the remaining ex-slaves, but they were subsequently defeated in an AK-47 armed campaign led by Nathan Bedford Forrest, who had no compunctions over killing them en masse, over the next two years. Still, unrest was continuing throughout the areas the Union had overrun, and that was one reason Lee pursued gradual emancipation along the politicians who sided with him. They saw that the CSA had become unstable as it was and that it was in danger of going up in a massive slave revolt.

On the other side of the coin, though, the less populous Confederate states in the Deep South and Trans-Mississippi strongly opposed Lee's policy after the 1866 Confederate election, but the Richmond Massacre, Rivington Revolt and Lee's secretly showing the materials from the future to the members of the Confederate Congress put paid to talks of that section of the CSA seceding to form their own country, though that could change after the events of the book ended as the reality of Lee's policy starts to sink in, even though the slave owners are going to be compensated. Economic realities for poorer whites aside, the South had built up a large mythology that justified slavery and the superority of the "White Race" that was enshrined in the Confederate Constitution - one reason Lee was in no hurry to help establish a Confederate Supreme Court. He was hoping that by the time any serious legal challenges to his gradual compensated emancipation law turned up, that his policy will have gone far enough along that it would be impossible to reverse.

As for their technology windfall, Lee made it clear that they were going to be kept secret as long as possible with the constantly guarded AWB prisoners helping them understand, use and (when possible) replicate them, as well as learn about military tactics and other non-tech related knowledge from the future. Lee was understandably concerned about the Union and Britain getting their hands on the technology, and wanted the CSA to have an ace-in-the-hole in case anyone started trouble with them.
 
Presumably the Rivington, North Carolina of 2014 was the most covenient place the AWB could establish their time machine as they're outlawed in the South Africa of their future, and cutting the link to move it might cut them off entirely from the new timeline they've already put so much work into establishing.
Do you mean in an ATL?

In OTL the AWB isn't banned, but I think it's just three guys and an email address now.

They even have a website: https://awb.co.za/
 
Do you mean in an ATL?

In OTL the AWB isn't banned, but I think it's just three guys and an email address now.

They even have a website: https://awb.co.za/
Presumably they're from an alternate 2014 (why I said their future), as they didn't have more advanced things from OTL they could have brought through - commercial drones, better computers and firearms, etc, they had a lot of Krugerrands and members, and brought through a lot of physical books on subjects about the era they were involved in rather than having the information in hard drives or flash drives, and had diesel generators to power their machines in a past with very little refined petroleum as of yet rather than solar panels. In reality, its because the book was published in 1992 and Harry Turtledove could have had no idea what the actual 2014 would have readily available.
 
Presumably they're from an alternate 2014 (why I said their future), as they didn't have more advanced things from OTL they could have brought through - commercial drones, better computers and firearms, etc, they had a lot of Krugerrands and members, and brought through a lot of physical books on subjects about the era they were involved in rather than having the information in hard drives or flash drives, and had diesel generators to power their machines in a past with very little refined petroleum as of yet rather than solar panels. In reality, its because the book was published in 1992 and Harry Turtledove could have had no idea what the actual 2014 would have readily available.

Or they were more interested in tech they could repair (or wouldn't lose if they had a power cut). A flash drive is pretty much useless without a reader <grin>

Chris
 
Worse, the UK might not want CSA cotton and poor whites won't want black competition (this was already happening in GOTS). This isn't going to end well for anyone.

By the 1870s, the South was back to being the top Cotton exporter to the UK:

cotton.jpg

Given British trade with Brazil, I don't see any reason why this would change. Historically this opened up a lot of wealth turnover in the South:

It is apparent that there was considerably more turnover among the ranks of top southern wealth holders than among northern wealth holders. While more than half of those in the top 5% of northern wealth holders had been in the same group in 1860, just one-third of top southern wealth holders in 1870 had enjoyed a similar status in 1860. Roughly the same proportion of the top 5% in each region was drawn from the next stratum of wealth holders in 1860 (90th to 95th percentile). On the other hand, our data suggest that the turmoil of the Civil War decade created much greater opportunities for those with moderate wealth in 1860 – between the 55th and 90th percentiles – to move up to the top of the wealth distribution. Nearly 40% of the wealthiest southerners in 1870 had been in this group in 1860, compared to less than one quarter of the richest northerners.​

Frankly, I think the CSA will be very lucky to hold together at all. They were never a united power, at least not as united as they claimed, and while the war will have given them a sense of nationhood the post-war world will challenge it. They'll resist the growth of centralised power, and the confederate government will have problems pushing back; they'll be short on money, which means funding an army will be difficult.

Turtledove presents the Rivington Crisis as a sort of analogue to Shays Rebellion, with Nathan Bedford Forrest offering to restore his commission to Lee and fight against anybody who attempted to sunder the Confederacy. Given NBF had been Lee's opponent in their bitterly contested election and thus the main opposition leader, it's suggested this soothes over most things.

It's also worth noting the "State's Right" stuff is Lost Cause mythology; the Confederate Constitution actually banned secession, if you can believe it lol. The CSA was actually the most centralized authority in North American history until the New Deal Era. Modernizing a Slave Economy: The Economic Vision of the Confederate Nation by John Majewski, Chapter ECONOMIC NATIONALISM AND THE GROWTH OF THE CONFEDERATE STATE:

States’ rights ideology, though, eventually lost to a more expansive vision of the Confederate central state. As Table 6 shows, the Confederate government chartered and subsidized four important lines to improve the movement of troops and supplies. Loans and appropriations for these lines amounted to almost $3.5 million, a significant sum given that a severe shortage of iron and other supplies necessarily limited southern railroad building. Jefferson Davis, who strongly backed these national projects, argued that military necessity rather than commercial ambition motivated national investment in these lines. The constitutional prohibition of funding internal improvements ‘‘for commercial purposes’’ was thus irrelevant. That Davis took this position during the Civil War followed naturally from his position on national railroads in the antebellum era. Like Wigfall, he believed that military necessity justified national railroad investment. As a U.S. senator, Davis told his colleagues in 1859 that a Pacific railroad ‘‘is to be absolutely necessary in time of war, and hence within the Constitutional power of the General Government.’’ Davis was more right than he realized. When the Republican-controlled Congress heavily subsidized the nation’s first transcontinental railroad in 1862, military considerations constituted a key justification. Even after the Civil War, the military considered the transcontinental railroad as an essential tool for subjugating the Sioux and other Native Americans resisting western settlement.​

When the Confederate Congress endorsed Davis’s position on railroads, outraged supporters of states’ rights strongly objected. Their petition against national railroads—inserted into the official record of the Confederate Congress—argued that the railroads in question might well have military value, ‘‘but the same may be said of any other road within our limits, great or small.’’ The constitutional prohibition against national internal improvements, the petition recognized, was essentially worthless if the ‘‘military value’’ argument carried the day. Essentially giving the Confederate government a means of avoiding almost any constitutional restrictions, the ‘‘military value’’ doctrine threatened to become the Confederacy’s version of the ‘‘general welfare’’ clause that had done so much to justify the growth of government in the old Union. The elastic nature of ‘‘military value,’’ however, hardly bothered the vast majority of representatives in the Confederate Congress. The bills for the railroad lines passed overwhelmingly in 1862 and 1863. As political scientist Richard Franklin Bensel has argued, the constitutional limitations on the Confederate central government ‘‘turned out to be little more than cosmetic adornments.’’
 
Presumably they're from an alternate 2014 (why I said their future), as they didn't have more advanced things from OTL they could have brought through - commercial drones, better computers and firearms, etc, they had a lot of Krugerrands and members, and brought through a lot of physical books on subjects about the era they were involved in rather than having the information in hard drives or flash drives, and had diesel generators to power their machines in a past with very little refined petroleum as of yet rather than solar panels. In reality, its because the book was published in 1992 and Harry Turtledove could have had no idea what the actual 2014 would have readily available.
Fair point.
 
Turtledove presents the Rivington Crisis as a sort of analogue to Shays Rebellion, with Nathan Bedford Forrest offering to restore his commission to Lee and fight against anybody who attempted to sunder the Confederacy. Given NBF had been Lee's opponent in their bitterly contested election and thus the main opposition leader, it's suggested this soothes over most things.

It's also worth noting the "State's Right" stuff is Lost Cause mythology; the Confederate Constitution actually banned secession, if you can believe it lol. The CSA was actually the most centralized authority in North American history until the New Deal Era. Modernizing a Slave Economy: The Economic Vision of the Confederate Nation by John Majewski, Chapter ECONOMIC NATIONALISM AND THE GROWTH OF THE CONFEDERATE STATE:


I'll reply to the rest tomorrow, but I always had the impression Forrest calculated the odds, decided the CSA was likely to win the war (even against future tech) and switched sides very quickly before he could be branded a traitor. (I don't have much sympathy for the founder of the KKK.)

The CSA banned secession? (My first response to that was hysterical laughter:D:D:D:D)

A while back I read Dixie Betrayed which noted, IIRC, that Davis spent a lot of his time arguing with state governors who didn't want to give power, troops and money to Richmond - how disasterous that was is debatable, but it certainly didn't help the CSA.

Chris
 
I'll reply to the rest tomorrow, but I always had the impression Forrest calculated the odds, decided the CSA was likely to win the war (even against future tech) and switched sides very quickly before he could be branded a traitor. (I don't have much sympathy for the founder of the KKK.)

Entirely possible, but the end result is his biggest and most powerful supporters are eliminated, which would leave him considerably weaker going forward. If he goes back on it later, Lee will have had time to strengthen his hand considerably. Maybe an NBF Revolt as an analogue to the Whiskey Rebellion?

The CSA banned secession? (My first response to that was hysterical laughter:D:D:D:D)

A while back I read Dixie Betrayed which noted, IIRC, that Davis spent a lot of his time arguing with state governors who didn't want to give power, troops and money to Richmond - how disasterous that was is debatable, but it certainly didn't help the CSA.

Chris

It happened, but it's worth noting the same thing happened for Lincoln too. Overall the Confederate state machinery was pretty effective as you would expect, given it had more Government agents than the North did; even as the Confederacy began to collapse in late 1864 they still managed to collect $110 Million in taxes and 86% of eligible White Males in Mississippi served in the Confederate Army, as some examples.
 
The CSA did not ban secession in their Constitution. There were attempts to put an explicit right to secession and to nullification in the Confederate Constitution which were tabled, but there is no section of the Confederate Constitution which prohibits secession by the states of the Confederacy.
 
The CSA did not ban secession in their Constitution. There were attempts to put an explicit right to secession and to nullification in the Confederate Constitution which were tabled, but there is no section of the Confederate Constitution which prohibits secession by the states of the Confederacy.
The Confederate Constitution directly specifies a permanent federal government.
 
Do you mean in an ATL?

In OTL the AWB isn't banned, but I think it's just three guys and an email address now.

They even have a website: https://awb.co.za/
Oh my goodness.

The website is a mix of merch, and seriously odd religious sentiments

Screenshot_20230923_072432_Chrome.jpg

After the senseless and horrific violent murder of the former Leader of the AWB Mr Eugene Terre Blanche in 2010, the Leadership of the AWB and the Executive Council came to the realization that if the Boer people want to survive in this country there is only one way out and that is to turn to his Creator and Heavenly Father for help and guidance.
Thanks to the grace of our Heavenly Father, a small splinter group of The Promised People has been preserved despite persecution and disregard who still honor and fulfill the Vows of their Fathers and remain faithful and believe in their God, Creator and Heavenly Father.

It is this small splinter group that, with the conviction of their minds, with the insight and the light at their disposal, will strive for a sustained series of Humble Services and gatherings.

The AWB has followed it's Leader's track, from domestic terrorism to farce.
 
The Confederate Constitution directly specifies a permanent federal government.
You're citing the Preamble that also talks about an Almighty God?

That is not a prohibition against secession by any state from the Confederacy, in any way, shape or form and presenting it as some kind of historical fact is very, very misleading.

The full thing reads:

We, the people of the Confederate States, each state acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity – invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God – do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America."

The biggest addition by the Confederates from the Preamble of the US constitution is basically just to specify that the States are themselves sovereign and independent. Even a textual reading of the Preamble makes it clear that that single word 'permanent' is not to be read as a blanket prohibition against secession (which to be clear the founders of the Confederacy believed was implicit in the United States Constitution as written).
 
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You're citing the Preamble that also talks about an Almighty God?

That is not a prohibition against secession by any state from the Confederacy, in any way, shape or form and presenting it as some kind of historical fact is very, very misleading.

The entirety of Texas v. White was based on the exact same language being used in the Articles of Confederation, with the only difference being the wording; permanent instead of perptual. How can a permanent federal government be established if secession is illegal?

The full thing reads:

We, the people of the Confederate States, each state acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity – invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God – do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America."

The biggest addition by the Confederates from the Preamble of the US constitution is basically just to specify that the States are themselves sovereign and independent. Even a textual reading of the Preamble makes it clear that that single word 'permanent' is not to be read as a blanket prohibition against secession (which to be clear the founders of the Confederacy believed was implicit in the United States Constitution as written).

I'm not presenting anything new here:

During the war, Confederate courts consistently interpreted the constitution’s provisions to limit national power. The constitution also clarified the concept of dual federalism in which the constitution was understood as a compact among the states, delegating only specific enumerated powers to the national government and retaining those not delegated for the individual states. However, the constitution did not provide for secession by individual states and judgements made by state supreme courts largely supported the national government, undercutting the idea of States’ Rights which had formed part of the rationale for the creation of the Confederacy. While the constitution limited national power it also sought to make the national government a more effective managerial government.​
 
The entirety of Texas v. White was based on the exact same language being used in the Articles of Confederation, with the only difference being the wording; permanent instead of perptual. How can a permanent federal government be established if secession is illegal?



I'm not presenting anything new here:

During the war, Confederate courts consistently interpreted the constitution’s provisions to limit national power. The constitution also clarified the concept of dual federalism in which the constitution was understood as a compact among the states, delegating only specific enumerated powers to the national government and retaining those not delegated for the individual states. However, the constitution did not provide for secession by individual states and judgements made by state supreme courts largely supported the national government, undercutting the idea of States’ Rights which had formed part of the rationale for the creation of the Confederacy. While the constitution limited national power it also sought to make the national government a more effective managerial government.​
You are misrepresenting and misinterpreting what is written even when you directly post from a text. This is a pattern that you consistently do across topics on this forum. The text you cite does not say that the Confederate Constitution prohibited secession. It did not in fact, do that, and the source you are citing here makes no such claim. It just says that it didn't codify any such right.

The Confederate Constitution did not prohibit secession. It did not include language explicitly allowing secession but there was a belief on the part of the participants in the drafting of the Confederate Constitution that the United States Constitution implicitly allowed secession. Where they altered the Preamble you are citing they did so in a manner so as to emphasize the independence and sovereignty of individual states, against the ambiguity of 'We the People of the United States'.

I think you can probably figure out what events occurred between 1861 and 1869 that would make Texas v. White irrelevant to the matter at hand. The Constitution of the Confederate States in no way prohibited secession and there is no reasonable reading of the historical text which would lead one to conclude that it did.

There is definitely a debate to be had about how the Confederate Constitution would have performed in peacetime and how any surviving Confederacy would weigh the balance between states' right and the powers of a national government- but there is no room to claim that the Constitution of the Confederate States as written prohibited secession or that the founders of the Confederacy believed they had drafted a document which would have prohibited secession.
 
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