• Hi Guest!

    The costs of running this forum are covered by Sea Lion Press. If you'd like to help support the company and the forum, visit patreon.com/sealionpress

Franco-British Union

Jophiel

Trend Setting 'Gender Tourist' since 2018.
Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
Pronouns
she/her, they/them.
Alright, this is a big topic for alternate history nerds, but I feel like after a chat with someone on it I felt that I should bring it up.

Let's say, somehow, the Franco-British Union goes into effect in the dying days of the the Western Front in 1940. France and Britain 'temporarily' merge their governments to better prosecute the war effort and defeat the Axis powers.

In this, feel free to do whatever is needed to give this the best plausibility, e.g. keep relations high between both powers beforehand, avoid the wiretapping by the army on that fateful call between De Gaulle and Reynaud somehow, get the vote passed in the French Cabinet.

  • How does this affect the immediate conflict, the reactions worldwide, the wider war?
  • How does it affect Partisans?
  • The falls of Greece and Yugoslavia?
  • Impact on Barbarossa?
  • Do other nations join, as I've briefly heard mentioned, effectively making a proto-European Government, or does it remain an Entente affair?
  • How long does it last post-war, what are the greater effects on history that I haven't mentioned?


Feel free to write as much or as little as you think on the topic, I'm super curious to hear what the forum's thoughts are.
 
Last edited:
To be honest, I have never been sure how serious the proposal for Franco-British unity really was. Even in the darkest days of 1940, there were strong historical reasons mandating against such a union, as well as the coldly practical problem of France needing to seek an armistice as it became clear the Germans had beaten them and the prospect of Britain trying to seek a separate peace of its own. Historically, of course, that didn’t happen, but any French politician worth of the title would at least consider the possibility.

There was also a considerable degree of antagonism between France and Britain as both sides sought to blame the other for the disaster. It would not be easy to overcome such a problem, not least because the prospects for long-term victory would have seemed very remote to the French government in 1940. There was a certain feeling, I suspect, that France had lost and it was time to take their chips, go home, and prepare for another war (as in 1871). With Hitler involved, that was foolish, but not unreasonable based on what they knew in 1940.

What sort of change would it have taken to make a semi-permanent union acceptable?

That’s a tricky question to answer. If France believes Britain will fight on until victory, the French will have a certain incentive to remain in the war - but that incentive would be balanced against the cold fact the Germans could do an awful lot of damage to France (perhaps in this timeline there would be no Vichy, although Vichy’s claim to be standing between France and total German occupation was more self-serving than anything else) and relatively few possibilities for actual victory over Nazi Germany.

Perhaps the Italians entered the war earlier than OTL. That will be foolish, but Mussolini was known for making stupid decisions. Perhaps he thinks France is going to exit the war quicker than OTL and he decides he needs to take his booty before it’s too late. In that case, the combined French and British Navies would have no trouble thrashing the Italian Navy and Anglo-French troops could invade Italian Libya from both East and West, collapsing much of Mussolini’s Empire within a month or two. This would in turn provoke Hitler to be harsher to France, not least because it would also provide excuse for moving additional French troops to Algeria, and instead of Vichy the war in France might end with a near complete German occupation and/or a French government that is even more blatantly a German collaborator.

If France could not get acceptable surrender terms, the French might move to Algeria and accept a union with Britain, at least the duration of the conflict. Might.

In this timeline, the remainder of the Italian Empire would be mopped up before Hitler could come to Mussolini’s rescue. Mussolini might not lose power, but Italian enthusiasm for adventures in Greece and Yugoslavia would be non-existent. Italy would be a very low level player in the war, even if she remained a formal combatant. This would allow the exiled French to ship additional troops to Indochina, making easier for them to stand up to the Japanese; it would also open the prospect of additional support to the French resistance without any of the inter-France political disputes that made it so hard for the Free French to establish themselves as the one true French government. (In this timeline, Charles de Gaulle would probably be a senior French military officer rather than the French political leader.)

Hitler would still go east in 1941, perhaps earlier than OTL. The real question is what would happen with Japan. If the French look stronger in Indochina, the Japanese will find it harder to bring troops to bear against European possessions or win so quickly when/if war breaks out. The absence of a major war in Libya/Egypt would make it easier for Britain to move troops to the Far East too, along with better commanders and war material.

We therefore have two possibilities:

One - Japan attacks Pearl Harbour, as in OTL, and we get a very different war in Europe (probably an invasion of France in 1943).

Two - Japan decides to avoid war with the United States, as well as everyone else, and the war between Hitler and Stalin ends with either a stalemate or one dictator triumphant over the other.

In the long run, greater Franco-British amity would probably lead to a very different NATO and European Union. Historically, there was a great deal of mistrust between Britain and France and that played a major role and how the EU took shape and form.

Thoughts?

Chris
 
Off the top of my head, a Union - if it leads to a recognisable French leader in London - means Vichy has less legitimacy and there's a stronger implication of British guns backing the government up, so do you get less colonies going Vichy? That would alter the North African front quite a bit.
 
Off the top of my head, a Union - if it leads to a recognisable French leader in London - means Vichy has less legitimacy and there's a stronger implication of British guns backing the government up, so do you get less colonies going Vichy? That would alter the North African front quite a bit.

To a very large extent, Vichy WAS the legal French government in 1940-43. It wasn't so much the successor to Paris as pretty much the same government, at least in a legal sense. There was no sense it was a different government - just because Biden replaced Trump and Trump replaced Obama doesn't mean the US government rebooted itself with each successive President.

If that legal government goes to the UK/North Africa instead, 'Vichy' will have much less legal standing and no legitimacy at all.

Chris
 
  • How does this affect the immediate conflict, the reactions worldwide, the wider war?

Provided there is an agreement for France to fight on around the same timeframe the FBU was proposed IOTL then Paris has fallen whilst the French army and BEF are trying to avoid a complete rout in retreating towards a new defence line on the Loire river with the Germans in speedy pursuit, the Luftwaffe is in complete control of the skies over Southern France. Having a government committed to fighting on doesn't change the fact that the French metropole is lost.

The question is whether to prolong resistance there in the hopes the Germans might overextend themselves, continuing the suffering of the French people with no hope of immediate success and every likelihood of losing what remains of the Entente forces, or start evacuating to North Africa as the air force have already started to do. This would involve most of the remaining Entente forces trying to make it to the Atlantic or Med on foot and threatens a complete collapse before they can gain much from it.

The international reaction to the fall of France is likely to be astonised similarly to OTL although the aftermath will be different with the Third Republic. If the Nazis create a French puppet regime it will lack the legitimacy that even Free France had in its infancy. The Germans likely occupy even more of France and the Italians may push irredentist claims much more aggressively than they did on the French metropole IOTL.

The American reaction is arguably the most interesting regarding the larger world. Vichy created an existential fear in American minds, not only had France disappeared as a guarantee of American safety it had now actively become a threat with the Axis-friendly regime having bases in the Caribbean and off the coast of Canada. The fall of metropolitan France and the fear of the same happening to the UK might be enough on its own but with the French colonies and fleet still in Allied hands the psychological impact which motivated an unprecedented military mobilisation might be lessened and isolationism may remain a stronger political force for longer.

  • How does it affect Partisans?

If actively pursued the French resistance will get off the ground a lot earlier even if initially excluding the PCF although there may be a worry about provoking German reprisals. The Vichy-apologist Sword and Shield argument doesn't bear up to much scrutiny but the FBU will have a duty of care towards its citizens under occupation which might lead to a more passive resistance line being urged with the real partisan struggle only commencing after Barbarossa as per OTL.

  • The falls of Greece and Yugoslavia?

Does Greece fall? ITTL October 1940 he Italians have a two front war in Libya on their hands, a Corsican Malta in the Ligurian and Tyrrhenian Seas, and a potentially larger and more unstable occupation zone in metropolitan France. Mussolini's impulsiveness may still be present but the strategic dithering which motivated the Greek adventure may be gone with Comando Supremo remaining solidly focused on North Africa.


  • Impact on Barbarossa?

Might be postponed depending on events in the Med in late 1940/early 1941 although probably still goes ahead unless the FBU are actively advancing somewhere on the European continent at that point.

  • Do other nations join, as I've briefly heard mentioned, effectively making a proto-European Government, or does it remain an Entente affair?

Likely just an Entente affair although its proponents such as Monnet will likely see it as a blueprint for a federal Europe.

  • How long does it last post-war, what are the greater effects on history that I haven't mentioned?

It might not even last the war.
 
Back
Top