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Alternate History General Discussion

There is a 'trainspotter' brigade who love to pick holes in books when something is featured some months earlier than in reality, especially with anything military. For those with less such knowledge, simply piling in against a book that looks 'wrong', is an easy way to garner what they feel is kudos for apparently 'revealing' how poor they feel a book is on that basis.

I'm going to be a devils advocate with this post, even though I understand the issues:

  1. Some people just don't get the concept of what alternate history is supposed to be. I know relatives and friends I could never talk about AH with, and they're anything but dumb or unimaginative.
  2. Sometimes there are things that don't feel right even in a spectacular story. Things with basic details (and these are both true examples) the author not knowing what the primary language of Brazil was and the author of another book not knowing what country The Hague was in. Those made me go "come on!" even though they were in cheap thrillers. I'm pretty forgiving about rivet-counting examples, but I can see what people would take issue, especially as...
  3. There are people whose mindsets skew in that direction. On example is people with a wargaming background, because in tabletop/computer mechanics, minor differences in hardware do matter and they're used to thinking that way (see the "CS Goto multilaser controversy" for a non-AH example). Another is that mainstream novels tend to have a terrible record in terms of these basic details, with "Abrams M60s with flamethrowers" and "machine gun pistols [exact words] firing heat seeking bullets [in what wasn't a sci-fi book]". I'm not saying it's a good mindset, but it's at least understandable to want to see that itch scratched.
I mean yes, if a book has 120mm Abrams tanks in a time when only the 105mm version was in service, I might take small issue with it. I remember a similar anachronism in a Fuldapocalyptic book where the Soviets were mentioned as all wearing camo uniforms when their actual standard issue of that time period was the plain "Afghanka". If those things did build up, you'd be somewhat justified in pointing them out, especially if the author went in depth and still got it wrong a lot of the time.
 
Just a random thought: Has anyone found (or written) AH that's outright comedic, be it real/dry or dark humor?

I've seen a fair number where dry, acerbic and dark comedy are key elements in a story or to a character's personality (Ex: Sanders' The Undiscovered and Journey to Fusang, Chabon's The Yiddish Policeman's Union), but I don't recall examples where it's front and center, and the story/world revolving around it. Maybe this is due (as it seems to me) to a great deal of AH being serious/dystopic, so comedy is therefore unusual, comes off as absurdist instead, or is perhaps faux pas, or there's some other reason altogether.

Thoughts?

For All Time springs to mind as becoming mostly led by dark comedy/farce after the fifties.

The list format always seems conducive to comedy, on the face of it you would think it would be dryer if anything but it seems drawn to it regardless.
 
For All Time springs to mind as becoming mostly led by dark comedy/farce after the fifties.

The list format always seems conducive to comedy, on the face of it you would think it would be dryer if anything but it seems drawn to it regardless.

Honestly I think most funny lists do flow out of the opposing tendency the format has to get just a bit too po-faced.

Huh, don’t know why I quoted this

Tragically, Lee Harvey Oswald escapes from prison to kill ag
 
I'm surprised we haven't gotten more "What if the Soviet Union won the Cold War" scenarios -- that should be as popular as Axis Victory scenarios but it's ... not?
There's a variety of factors involved in that, but one which springs to mind is that the Axis were militarily defeated. That makes for straightforward PODs and extrapolation about a military victory rather than defeat. (Straightforward in terms of description, not in terms of plausibility).

The Soviet Union essentially imploded, which means that figuring out a POD is more in terms of economics, social structure, peacetime policy decisions, etc, which are much more amorphous in terms of figuring out a POD, extrapolating from that, developing a scenario, etc. And that's just to figure out "Soviet Union survives for longer", before figuring how to turn that into "U.S. + allies lose the Cold War."
 
Very interesting, though I do think “Glantz thinks Soviet victory wasn’t inevitable anymore” is a bit of an exaggeration. Doesn’t seem like a huge revision of his previous works, just that good intelligence is always useful and that it helped prevent the capital from being taken which would have made the situation worse, but that happening doesn’t mean the Soviets were gonna throw in the towel.
Just now saw this.

Glantz had previously stated the Soviets were always predestined to win, including taking the position that Lend Lease only shortened WWII in the ETO by about three years in the early 2000s. He's since backtracked on both, as I noted here but also in terms of the articles his Journal has been putting out in the last decade or so. As for whether it's an exaggeration or not, in his own words the USSR could collapse as a result of this:

Finally, the actions Stalin took in reaction to the intelligence he received had a major impact on the course and outcome of military actions during the first year of the Soviet-German War. Although they did not lessen the disastrous immediate impact the Barbarossa invasion had on the Soviet Armed Forces, that is the outright destruction of three armies and much of the Red Air Force on the ground, Stalin’s actions, which covertly deployed more than four reserve armies to the Smolensk region by early July, put paid to the German assumption it would win the war if it could destroy the bulk of the Red Army west of the Dvina and Dnepr Rivers. Likewise, Stalin’s decision in October 1941 to transfer large forces from the Far East to the West had a significant impact on the course and outcome of the battle for Moscow. In short, this decision ultimately played a major role in staving off a Red Army defeat at the gates of Moscow and helped prevent German seizure of the Soviet capital, if not the collapse of the Soviet Union as a whole. Furthermore, but to a lesser extent, it also facilitated the subsequent successful Red Army counteroffensive.​

What changed? In the 2010s, Glantz did his Barbarossa Derailed series which argued the German operational plan came undone during the prolonged battle for Smolensk. The necessary Soviet ingredients for that defensive success was the partial mobilization of Soviet reserves starting in April on the basis of Zorge's intelligence work, as well as the transfer of forces from the Far East. Without those, the Germans would not have been derailed and the delayed Soviet mobilization would've enabled the Germans to overrun enough of the Soviet strategic space that their aims would've been achieved.

This is a pretty big case in point of what my initial post was about; a lot of mainstream historians changed their opinions on the basis of new evidence in the last 20 years. I do not feel Alternate History, as a genre, has kept up with that change for a variety of reasons.
Plus, I’ve heard lots of people scoff at the claim about how bad it would be, the Germans would be absurdly overextended and Moscow isn’t the only important city in the USSR, they’ll still have a shitload of resources to kick them out of the country.

I think this is another example, in particular because of access to Soviet archival data that is increasingly available over the last 15 years that has challenged a lot of conventional wisdom about the Eastern Front in particular:

What is noteworthy is that the share of Moscow agglomeration in industrial output throughout the war was bigger than the two biggest agglomerations in Urals - Sverdlovsk and Chelyabinsk (famous Tankograd) and West Siberia's Novosibirsk agglomeration combined (19 vs. 18.4%). Together with Gorky agglomeration, the share of just these two Western cities and their surrounding areas was bigger than Sverdlovsk, Chelyabinsk, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk and Khabarovsk combined (25,7 vs. 20,6%). Overall, the share of economic regions on Volga and West of the river in Soviet industrial output during the Great Patriotic War was about 58-60%, with the 40-42% share of Eastern regions, led by the Urals. What's more, the total share of Central (Moscow) and Volga-Vyatka (Gorky) economic regions (33,3% of the whole country's industrial output) was higher than Ural and West Siberia regions together (31,9%).​

And table:

56_42a876b94c7862a684362e149b2e2231_t.png


You can also see the importance of Moscow in terms of categories of military goods:

1) all of IL-2's and IL-10's were produced in Western regions of Soviet Union - in Moscow (no. 30 and no. 381) and Kuybyshev factories (no. 1 and no. 18).​
2) 97,51% of truck production took place in Moscow (ZIS) and Gorky (GAZ) factories.​
3) at least 72,49% of total aircraft production took place in Western regions of USSR. At least, because I can not precisely locate the places of production of the remaining 13088 pieces (9,16%). Thus, this share might actually increase.​
4) Ya. M. Sverdlov plant in Dzerzhinsk (Gorky region) was the main supplier of explosives during the Great Patriotic War - every second projectile and every third air bomb manufactured in the USSR was fired by the Ya. M. Sverdlov plant. More than 148 million artillery shells, mines and other items were fired at the plant (source).​
5) all of BA-64 light armored cars (8216 pieces in years 1942-1945) were produced by GAZ (source).​
6) plants of Gorky produced alone 65,82% of all light tanks and 21,26% of medium tanks and 35,20% of SPGs.​
7) around 43% of all tank and SPG production took place in Western regions of Soviet Union in years 1941-1945.​

In short, yes, the loss of the Moscow-Gorky region would be fatal for the Soviet effort. Perhaps not a quick collapse as envisioned by Barbarossa's planners, but definitely the end result of the loss of so much economic output.
 
I'm surprised we haven't gotten more "What if the Soviet Union won the Cold War" scenarios -- that should be as popular as Axis Victory scenarios but it's ... not?

There was a flourishing of such scenarios in the early to mid 2010s, but that tapered off because of recent events. Definitely the field of Soviet studies is one that has progressed however, and such scenarios can be extrapolated much easier now with a lot of work seeming to zero in on the causes and most of them only occurred in the 1980s and center around Gorbachev himself.

Edit: I realize now you were asking about a Soviet win, as opposed to Soviet survival. My bad, misread.
 
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I'm surprised we haven't gotten more "What if the Soviet Union won the Cold War" scenarios -- that should be as popular as Axis Victory scenarios but it's ... not?

Jared's pretty much nailed it: there's no grand dramatic reason for the USSR to win and the West to lose, not unless you do a POD of a Third World War before MAD kicks in and the USSR wins that way, but in that case most people would probably go for Nazis first. (In the Cold War that would've been different because your readers wouldn't be saying "nah I don't buy the commies could do that", not when Everybody Knows they're the implacable superpower equal to the West) The only big USSR Wins story I can think of is Sliders doing it for their first episode and that was because the USSR had just dissolved & they could grab the zeitgeist.
 
Jared's pretty much nailed it: there's no grand dramatic reason for the USSR to win and the West to lose, not unless you do a POD of a Third World War before MAD kicks in and the USSR wins that way, but in that case most people would probably go for Nazis first. (In the Cold War that would've been different because your readers wouldn't be saying "nah I don't buy the commies could do that", not when Everybody Knows they're the implacable superpower equal to the West) The only big USSR Wins story I can think of is Sliders doing it for their first episode and that was because the USSR had just dissolved & they could grab the zeitgeist.

The Gladiator by Turtledove springs to mind as a more comprehensive account although the reasons as to how the Soviets came out on top are vague and the worldbuilding can be rather contradictory (The WP is fighting a Maoist insurgency in Albania but there are high schools in WP countries named after Enver Hoxha?) Basically Brezhnev-era stagnation, in Italy, for over a century. Rumsfeldia would imply to be heading that way as well although more the Soviet Union winning by default after China and the US imploded. With even more political axe-grinding you've got Amerika where the Soviets successfully disable the US nuclear arsenal and, because the American people are weak and unpatriotic, conquer the country without a fight under the auspices of UN peacekeeping. Someone also wrote a book about how different categories of people would fare in a Soviet-occupied US, I can't remember the name of it but it's much the same as Amerika in its political point scoring.

I suppose the Rumsfeldia example would imply why it's a difficult scenario to envisage, even if you screw-up the United States to 11 and do the opposite for the Soviets they still aren't going to achieve the sort of power projection that allowed the unipolairty the US enjoyed in the 90s, I do like QuantumBranching's more measured take on Amerika where the Soviets run up against this and have to try and muddle through. Realistically even in a world with an enhanced Soviet Union and a declining US, the Cold War likely wouldn't be over yet. The path to the global dominance America achieved began a century before the Cold War even started and despite all the progress the Soviet Union achieved in a short space of time, it's going to require a protracted series of lucky breaks with all their major competitors in conflict with one another without the benefit of two oceans to minimise blowback from that.
 
Jared's pretty much nailed it: there's no grand dramatic reason for the USSR to win and the West to lose, not unless you do a POD of a Third World War before MAD kicks in and the USSR wins that way
One of my Fuldapocalypses that's buried in my "I might write it.... sometimes" pile is kind of like this.

  1. Fuldapocalypse, conventional phase is a Soviet victory where they deliberately hold back from approaching the Rhine/French-German Border.
  2. Tense peace negotiations result in Three Germanies. The GDR, most of west Germany being turned into an officially neutral and limited-arms country IE Finland or Austria[1], and a rump FRG occupying a small chunk of land in the far west.
  3. That would just be the backdrop for the actual plot later on, which I never really figured out.
[1]"Neutral" Germany revives the Weimar trick of bending and sneaking past the legal limitations as much as possible. For instance, they get a mysterious love of civilian pickup trucks that just so happen to be easily convertible to technicals in wartime.
 
Peters' Red Army is a pretty big "Soviets Win" book, but it's contemporary for its time and doesn't attempt to be any kind of alternate history. Another far worse is Cyril Joly's Silent Night, where the Soviet special forces infiltrate NATO so thoroughly and take out everyone important so that, like in Czechoslovakia and the beginning of Afghanistan, they can just walk in and face essentially no resistance (sound familiar?)
 
Starting on SSGB - I've seen the recent show - and among other nice subtle bits, I like how SS head man Kellerman & his generation uses a military rank instead of his actual SS rank but refers to Huff, who is a rival and 'not our sort', by his SS handle.

And the medical examiner calmly saying London's hospitals are overworked "for reasons I will not embarrass you, or your army colleague, by elaborating "
 
There are so many chilling little touches like that, it's what puts it so many other AH novels for me, all other dystopian fiction arguably.

Just got to the big school raid where bored soldiers know there's no reason to drag the older kids off and the prisoners sing If You're Happy on the way - "Douglas went rigid with shame" - before seeing a man he used to know with a yellow star, who he didn't know was near homeless.

And then young Dougie wants to collect a Gestapo badge to show off at school.

Brrrr.
 
Just got to the big school raid where bored soldiers know there's no reason to drag the older kids off and the prisoners sing If You're Happy on the way - "Douglas went rigid with shame" - before seeing a man he used to know with a yellow star, who he didn't know was near homeless.

And then young Dougie wants to collect a Gestapo badge to show off at school.

Brrrr.

I'd forgotten about the hospital but those where the ones that really got under my skin.

Came across this poem by Bertolt Brecht today, written after the war,

I know of course; it’s simply luck
That I’ve survived so many friends. But last night in a dream
I heard those friends say of me: Only the strong survive.
And I hated myself.
 
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