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Alternate History General Discussion

Do you really think that all of the SLP participants who have written works set after Axis victories are effectively Nazi propagandists, that there is no other way their works can be interpreted? I'm not sure we have much to say to each other if that's what you believe. I have read your articles; I think we might have irreconcilably different ideas about the ethical responsibilities of art.
I believe a great many people don't want to engage with the ethics of their writings/the writing they consume within genre space and get very riled up and overly defensive when you pose even an obvious critique that treats that genre seriously, viewing it as a personal insult for whatever reason (even if their own work is not applicable to the criticism, see replies to my prior post for examples); such is fandom. If you want to leap to me calling people on this site little Hitlers I can't stop you making that leap, but I would emphasise that my criticism does not assume you are automatically an apologist for writing [regime] victory, but that in thoughtlessly (or in the case of one Mr Turtledove, not so thoughtlessly) regurgitating the empowering myths of those regimes that are so often at odds with reality that it'd just rooting an AH in bad history, it only acts in support of those myths, even if unconsciously or accidentally. Recognising and avoiding that is our responsibility as writers of history, even alternate.
 
I believe a great many people don't want to engage with the ethics of their writings/the writing they consume within genre space and get very riled up and overly defensive when you pose even an obvious critique that treats that genre seriously, viewing it as a personal insult for whatever reason (even if their own work is not applicable to the criticism, see replies to my prior post for examples); such is fandom. If you want to leap to me calling people on this site little Hitlers I can't stop you making that leap, but I would emphasise that my criticism does not assume you are automatically an apologist for writing [regime] victory, but that in thoughtlessly (or in the case of one Mr Turtledove, not so thoughtlessly) regurgitating the empowering myths of those regimes that are so often at odds with reality that it'd just rooting an AH in bad history, it only acts in support of those myths, even if unconsciously or accidentally. Recognising and avoiding that is our responsibility as writers of history, even alternate.
It's not bad history though- the academic consensus has definitely moved away from more generous assumptions of the Axis powers' warfighting capabilities but it still hasn't arrived at the idea that the Axis powers were a joke or were doomed from the start.

The idea that the Axis Powers were somehow wholly incapable ignores the fact that for a substantial portion of WW2 it appeared, not just internally but to their opponents- that they could in fact win. You essentially just have to close your eyes for the first 4 years of WW2 to try and believe that the Axis Powers weren't capable of massive successes.
 
regurgitating the empowering myths of those regimes that are so often at odds with reality that it'd just rooting an AH in bad history, it only acts in support of those myths, even if unconsciously or accidentally. Recognising and avoiding that is our responsibility as writers of history, even alternate.

I fear this is the sort of vulgar materialism that detracts from historical study rather than promotes it. Empowering myths are almost always designed to be at odds with reality but people buy into them and react to them. Through that myths should not be dismissed either in historical study or historical fiction. This is perhaps especially felt in the history and culture of those oppressed peoples who have been on the other side of the jackboot of these regimes.

Frantz Fanon in The Wretched of the Earth wrote of the impact of colonial dominance on the African identity, 'Because it is a systematic negation of the other person and a furious determination to deny the other person all attributes of humanity, colonialism forces the people it dominates to ask themselves the question constantly: "In reality, who am I?" The defensive attitudes created by this violence bringing together of the colonised man and the colonial system form themselves into a structures which then reveals the colonised personality.'

Lorraine Hansberry portrays this self-doubt in her play, Les Blancs; the settler-colonial regime appears unstoppable, they have helicopters, jets and tanks while the African rebels barely have any small arms. The settlers are immensely confident in their ownership of the land and their innate supremacy to the Africans. There's no hope of reasoning with them or even bargaining with them, the only recourse for national liberation is a brutal total war which carries little hope of victory against these overwhelming odds.

This ignores that the British Empire by the late fifties was crumbling; mortally wounded strategically and abandoned morally at its centre but for the African on the ground deciding whether there's a third path between becoming an agent in their own dehumanisation or going up against a mechanised army with a machete that wasn't particularly relevant. Where's the line between regurgitation and the personality?
 
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Its entirely fair to say that Fascism is an inherently contradictory, unstable and chaotic system and that to propose how it survives presupposes that it can somehow change to survive. How is that not a political supposition? It requires a degree of buy in to the project. Fascist victory was forever war in the Urals and against the enemies at home, of endless struggle for power and battles of wills and subjugation and chaos. In the places it did survive it was a world of secret police, court politics and helicopter rides, at best and race war in the Colonies against non-whites toeing genocide in other cases. People on this site have told me that's an incorrect interpretation but I'm just going by what the Fascists said and did.

Yes, that's exactly what it would have looked like, and certainly anyone who'd portray a victorious Nazi state as good or peaceful would be engaging in apologism - but again, violent and unstable and ideologically contradictory regimes have teetered on for decades or centuries in real history. Even fascists have - look at Franco and Salazar. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that fascism will always contradict itself out of existence. I just disagree with the premise here; I don't think writing this stuff automatically implies a "buy-in." It's a case by case thing, just like any other argument in media criticism.

I believe a great many people don't want to engage with the ethics of their writings/the writing they consume within genre space and get very riled up and overly defensive when you pose even an obvious critique that treats that genre seriously, viewing it as a personal insult for whatever reason (even if their own work is not applicable to the criticism, see replies to my prior post for examples); such is fandom. If you want to leap to me calling people on this site little Hitlers I can't stop you making that leap, but I would emphasise that my criticism does not assume you are automatically an apologist for writing [regime] victory, but that in thoughtlessly (or in the case of one Mr Turtledove, not so thoughtlessly) regurgitating the empowering myths of those regimes that are so often at odds with reality that it'd just rooting an AH in bad history, it only acts in support of those myths, even if unconsciously or accidentally. Recognising and avoiding that is our responsibility as writers of history, even alternate.
I promise you I'm not angry, I just disagree with you! Critical thinking is always welcome.

But I think we've reached an impasse here, since I don't agree that an Axis victory setting automatically legitimizes fascist myths no matter how it's written. And I don't think that authors need to anticipate and be responsible for every way in which people might misinterpret their work. (Egregious examples aside, etc.)
 
My (English) great aunt fell in love with a German POW and moved to Benoni, South Africa.

She was sort of unpersonned, and although one of my uncle's tried to trace her, noone had the bloke's name so 🤷‍♂️
That's where I grew up, ha ha. Still go there quite often, still have a few friends that live there.
 
Yes, that's exactly what it would have looked like, and certainly anyone who'd portray a victorious Nazi state as good or peaceful would be engaging in apologism - but again, violent and unstable and ideologically contradictory regimes have teetered on for decades or centuries in real history. Even fascists have - look at Franco and Salazar. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that fascism will always contradict itself out of existence. I just disagree with the premise here; I don't think writing this stuff automatically implies a "buy-in." It's a case by case thing, just like any other argument in media criticism.
This sums up the debate well. I don’t think portraying an Axis victory (however you define this) is necessarily a political supposition. A millenarian regime in OTL Maoist China survived for decades and killed tens of millions of people based on fantastical ideas divorced from reality.

I think part of the issue is that Axis Victory AH can extrapolate directly from the Nazis’ postwar plans for Europe without recognising how these would collide with reality (which is ahistorical and apologetic). That’s not to same as saying that the regime would immediately collapse under the weight of its contradictions: given modern industrial states‘ capacity to use violence and fear to control their populations this would be odd. More realistic would be to explore their post-war economic difficulties, the failure of the ideal of settlement, the role of religion versus esoteric Nazi views, guerrilla resistance in the East etc, rather than the regime as this horrifying all-powerful state of the Nazis’ imagination.
 
The discussion of Liberian flags over in one of the political threads reminded me of what is, in my opinion, one of the greatest pieces of world building in AH- Liberia* in Angola in Decades of Darkness by @Jared.
In interesting timing, I’ve just finished writing a scene set in DoD Liberia as part of the broader rewrite of the timeline.
 
More realistic would be to explore their post-war economic difficulties, the failure of the ideal of settlement, the role of religion versus esoteric Nazi views, guerrilla resistance in the East etc, rather than the regime as this horrifying all-powerful state of the Nazis’ imagination.

This reminds me of the movie Downfall, and how people rightfully praised both the serious original and silly subtitlings for showing the Nazis as defeated and pathetic, not domineering and scary.
 
Why is it that no one can write a genuinely good Axis Victory TL?

The only good one I've seen (outside of TNO) is probably Alice in Wratheland, but that's a Lovecraft ASB thingy bob.

Do you mean like as a fictional setting or in terms of a realistic scenario? Others have pointed out the former, and the latter has been done often enough; R.H. Stolfi did exactly this in the 1990s with his book and now Nigel Askey is doing a modern update. That’s just in the professional sphere.

One big issue I’ve noticed is it’s clear people haven’t kept up with recent research. Adam Tooze has retreated from some of his positions and others from his book are now increasingly under attack. David Glantz spent most of his career saying Soviet victory was inevitable and then has softened considerably on that over the course of the last decade.
 
Do you mean like as a fictional setting or in terms of a realistic scenario? Others have pointed out the former, and the latter has been done often enough; R.H. Stolfi did exactly this in the 1990s with his book and now Nigel Askey is doing a modern update. That’s just in the professional sphere.

One big issue I’ve noticed is it’s clear people haven’t kept up with recent research. Adam Tooze has retreated from some of his positions and others from his book are now increasingly under attack. David Glantz spent most of his career saying Soviet victory was inevitable and then has softened considerably on that over the course of the last decade.
Oh, really? Can you explain the things Tooze has retreated from and why Glantz is a bit distrustful of the idea of Soviet victory being inevitable?
 
Oh, really? Can you explain the things Tooze has retreated from and why Glantz is a bit distrustful of the idea of Soviet victory being inevitable?

The whole underlying point of Wages of Destruction was that Germany was fundamentally inferior in economics, which represents the third school of Post-War consideration of the German war economy. The problem with that, and Tooze has publicly stated his thesis needs revision on at least some points too, is what he's found since that book came out almost 20 years ago. Case in point:

For the period after 1935, until the early 1940s, our data suggest a remarkable degree of convergence. The American stock stagnated. In some areas, there was disinvestment. And the average age of machinery rose dramatically. By contrast, Germany entered a period of rapid catch-up, which appears to have continued into the early years of the war. By 1940, German metal-working came close to matching its American counterpart in terms of the number of workers employed and the quantity and types of machines installed. German machines were, on average, far younger. This process of catching-up, however, was dramatically reversed during World War II. Over a period of no more than four years the American stock expanded by over eighty percent and growth was markedly concentrated in key categories of mass production equipment. It appears that it was only in this period that mass production machinery came to truly dominate US metal-working. German investment, albeit moving in the same direction, failed to match the new intensity of American commitment to mass production in some key machinery classes.​
This was not a new revelation, really, and was something the old "Blitzkrieg School" had been arguing since the War ended:

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If Germany has parity in industrial stock, how exactly can you make the claim they're inferior? You really can't, which is something critiques of WoD have been saying since it came out:

However, there are also blanks in Tooze's study, which in a sense could not be avoided because the relevant research on this topic only got underway at the time his manuscript was written. Among these blank spots on the Nazi economy is, firstly, the historical analysis of its Europe-wide spread. In this respect, the author could only refer to individual country studies, especially on Franco German and German-Norwegian economic relations and the predatory economic side of the German invasion of the Soviet Union. However, comprehensive studies have only appeared in recent years. They make it clear that the archipelago of Nazi economics did indeed spread throughout Europe from 1940/41 onward, thereby countries that had remained formally neutral - in particular Switzerland and Sweden. In the territories occupied by Germany, a total of about 36 million people were forced to work for their war and armament efforts, almost three times more than the total of 13.5 million forced and slave laborers within the territory of the Reich. If Tooze were writing his study today, he could not get past these newly reconstructed facts and would have to change his assessment of the fundamental and, from the outset, hopeless inferiority of the Nazi economy to the potential of the Allies. In the light of these facts, on the other hand, the far more cautious assessment of Richard Overy's far more cautious assessment of the defeat of the fascist axis as far less "lawful" appears in a new light.2​
As for David Glantz, look at his article The Impact of Intelligence Provided to the Soviet Union by Richard Zorge on Soviet Force Deployments from the Far East to the West in 1941 and 1942, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies from 2017 as an illustrative example of this:

Finally, the actions Stalin took in reaction to the intelligence he received had a major impact on the course and outcome of military actions during the first year of the Soviet-German War. Although they did not lessen the disastrous immediate impact the Barbarossa invasion had on the Soviet Armed Forces, that is the outright destruction of three armies and much of the Red Air Force on the ground, Stalin’s actions, which covertly deployed more than four reserve armies to the Smolensk region by early July, put paid to the German assumption it would win the war if it could destroy the bulk of the Red Army west of the Dvina and Dnepr Rivers. Likewise, Stalin’s decision in October 1941 to transfer large forces from the Far East to the West had a significant impact on the course and outcome of the battle for Moscow. In short, this decision ultimately played a major role in staving off a Red Army defeat at the gates of Moscow and helped prevent German seizure of the Soviet capital, if not the collapse of the Soviet Union as a whole. Furthermore, but to a lesser extent, it also facilitated the subsequent successful Red Army counteroffensive.​

If you want an Axis victory PoD, here is David Glantz himself giving it to you via Richard Zorge getting picked up by German or Japanese counter-intelligence:

Therefore, and ironically, although Zorge provided valuable and accurate intelligence to his masters in Moscow throughout 1941, given Stalin’s actions and proclivities, Zorge made his most important contribution prior to 22 June 1941. This is so because information from Zorge and others prompted the always distrustful dictator to take those prudent measures—specifically, the convert mobilization and subsequent massive large-scale exercise, which ultimately thwarted the ambitious aims of Operation Barbarossa. While Zorge’s contributions after Barbarossa began, specifically during Operation Typhoon, remain significant, they were less so in terms of impact because Stalin would have likely acted as he did without Zorge’s information.​
If you'd like a copy of the article, I'd be happy to give it.
 
Very interesting, though I do think “Glantz thinks Soviet victory wasn’t inevitable anymore” is a bit of an exaggeration. Doesn’t seem like a huge revision of his previous works, just that good intelligence is always useful and that it helped prevent the capital from being taken which would have made the situation worse, but that happening doesn’t mean the Soviets were gonna throw in the towel.

Plus, I’ve heard lots of people scoff at the claim about how bad it would be, the Germans would be absurdly overextended and Moscow isn’t the only important city in the USSR, they’ll still have a shitload of resources to kick them out of the country.
 
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