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AHC/WI: Western Kafala System

L

lerk

Well-known member
In the midst of neoliberalism, globalization, and declining birth rates, western countries realize that they are in need for a foreign work force. However at the same time they are nationalistic enough to where they don’t want those foreigners to have a say in their affairs. How could a Western “Kafala” system, akin to the one which is present in the Arab states (especially in the Gulf) emerge? That is there are migrant workers but they aren’t given citizenship.
 
This is actually more interesting than people expect - How the Global South looks at the Global North, how internal European/American politics are impacted with a such an immigration system, how class relations between the native populations are impacted, how leftist movements in the West react to this (do they side with the migrant workers, many of them non-white, or do they engage in nationalism and want their deportation?) etc.
 
Charles EP M. said:
I'm not sure what the idea is here versus the existing work visa systems, if the way they'd be different is citizenship. You already don't have that and your children might not depending on domestic laws
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AIUI people on work visas tend to have more actual rights than kafala system people-they have their own papers and legal status, and thus some level of at least in principle legal protection even if it's weakened by depending on your employer for the right to stay in the country.

EDIT: see for instance https://travel.state.gov/content/da...ctions/Wilberforce/Wilberforce-ENG-100116.pdf, also AIUI you can depart voluntarily at any point without an exit visa.
 
Right, but that's what I'm confused on: the premise is the kafala system means no citizenship, not that the western governments will give vast powers to the employer and few general rights to the workers (which is the issue in Gulf states).
 
Charles EP M. said:
Right, but that's what I'm confused on: the premise is the kafala system means no citizenship, not that the western governments will give vast powers to the employer and few general rights to the workers (which is the issue in Gulf states).
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Ok I read the scenario as something more akin to a western kafala system that looks well more kafalaesque.
 
Jukato said:
Get rid of birthright citizenship and make the open borders idea of people like Bryan Caplan much more popular but also have people remain sufficiently concerned about average national differences in regards to things such as cultural values, et cetera to conclude that the best solution for poverty in the developing world is to allow Third Worlders to work en masse in the West but without either giving them or their descendants citizenship rights. But they would also fear that such a system would be unsustainable long-term in democratic countries and thus will place a large part of guest workers' salaries in special funds that guest workers could only access after they will leave the country.
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MODERATOR POST

Whilst this posting has now been deleted, which the moderation team have taken into account. Complaints were received about it for some of the language within. Having reviewed it, there are concerns particularly about the use of IQ, which is a clear indicator that someone has been picking up information on "Race Science", a couple of members have been banned for this nonsense in the past and the use of "Third Worlders" which has generally not been used for a couple of decades now. It has been decided to kick the member concerned for seven days.
 
Roger II said:
Honestly undocumented immigrants in the US are probably closer to this than anything else.
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I forgot that Qatar has sanctuary cities where migrant workers can go to escape the Kafala system.

Lmao. Undocumented immigrants are not slaves. There are people affected by actual slavery in the US (southern prison industrial complex/punishment for a crime clause)
 
theflyingmgoose said:
I forgot that Qatar has sanctuary cities where migrant workers can go to escape the Kafala system.

Lmao. Undocumented immigrants are not slaves. There are people affected by actual slavery in the US (southern prison industrial complex/punishment for a crime clause)
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"Closest To" is not the same as identical and plenty of Undocumented People have to suffer under forms of unfree labor. It's not really an lol thing.
 
Japhy said:
"Closest To" is not the same as identical and plenty of Undocumented People have to suffer under forms of unfree labor. It's not really an lol thing.
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Fair point, apologies. IMO the US in many ways is the Gulf States but more progressive on social/cultural issues. I am curious what your take is on how Europe avoided the same issue as the US with those forms of exploitation. European politics (speaking from personal experience) can be just as toxic on illegal immigration and since Europe got hit with massive migrant waves rather than the steady trickle crossing the US/Mexico border.
 
theflyingmgoose said:
I forgot that Qatar has sanctuary cities where migrant workers can go to escape the Kafala system.

Lmao. Undocumented immigrants are not slaves. There are people affected by actual slavery in the US (southern prison industrial complex/punishment for a crime clause)
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Yea to be clear-I'm not saying "undocumented immigrants are slaves" or trying to draw an analogy to PIC stuff, my point is that they are the closer analogy in the sense of being similarly easily and often abused migrant laborers due to their legal situation. Even H1B visa holders are a bit less at risk because while their status is dependent on employment, they can depart at any time and have legal recourse if they are harmed or mistreated.
 
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