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AHC: Socialist-dominant USA

Deceptacon

Dyke to Watch Out For
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I've been feeling rather inspired by @Steve Brinson 's Tomorrow, Perhaps the Future as of late, which concerns an America with guided social democracy under the SPA after a tumultuous 1910s.

This has got me thinking about what other developments and divergences could lead to a similar ending--that being an America in which socialism is the rule of the day, at least within the nominal trappings of American democracy. Looking to have a free-wheeling discussion on the matter as I'm genuinely at a little bit of a loss on how to achieve that, at least without stepping on Steve's shoes. In my mind, something distinct from a typical "and then the Socialists overtake the Democrats as the more working class-oriented party," although YMMV on if its Sewer Socialism or more radical union-oriented socialism under Haywood or whoever. Thoughts?
 
Considering this is around the time of the nadir of race relations in the US (1915 being a banner year with the revival of the KKK at Stone Mountain, complete with cross-burning, and the release of DW Griffith's The Birth of a Nation), how would African-Americans fare during this transition, especially with the Great Migration still ongoing? I'm sure there's still plenty in the US that would see the Socialists as such a clear and present danger to the system that there would be pressure to get rid of the Socialist Party, if not neuter it completely so it wouldn't form a government ever again, especially in the Solid South, Chicago, and a few other places.
 
Considering this is around the time of the nadir of race relations in the US (1915 being a banner year with the revival of the KKK at Stone Mountain, complete with cross-burning, and the release of DW Griffith's The Birth of a Nation), how would African-Americans fare during this transition, especially with the Great Migration still ongoing? I'm sure there's still plenty in the US that would see the Socialists as such a clear and present danger to the system that there would be pressure to get rid of the Socialist Party, if not neuter it completely so it wouldn't form a government ever again, especially in the Solid South, Chicago, and a few other places.
One thing that I think is an interesting idea is a successful Socialist movement becoming popular by leaning into racist elements, popularizing the economic ideals and then another more radical Socialist party coming in on a social justice platform, making the US pretty much institutionally Socialist without degrading Democracy
 
although YMMV on if its Sewer Socialism or more radical union-oriented socialism under Haywood or whoever. Thoughts?
I think one of the big questions of alternate American socialisms is the relationship to the Soviet Union and Leninist doctrine. Before 1917, you can have basically anything - pure uncut technocratic Bellamyism watched over by machines of loving grace, smallholder Georgist cooperativism backed by Social Gospel evangelical tent revivalism, multiethnic Tammanyish syndicalist machine DeLeonism, commune-based anarchist Permanent Revolution, polite consensus NGO-based social democracy... the sky's the limit. After 1917, any socialist government is a) going to be affected by the split between communists and socialists b) going to have to take a stand one way or the other, whether formally adopting Marxism-Leninism to some substantial degree or explicitly rejecting it in favor of something else.
 
the sky's the limit.

I honestly very much doubt this, truth be told.

I don't think that it's inconceivable that an explicitly socialist party would be able to become the "Party of the Left" in the United States with a PoD in the late 19th/early 20th century, but I very much think that in ninety-nine cases out of one hundred, they are going to do so within the framework of established political practice in America, and likely be an American take on the British Labour Party or German SPD.

There was this one famous speech that Nye Bevan gave where he said that there was no more revolutionary invention in history than parliamentary democracy. Well, if America were to have a Socialist Party winning the Presidency and Congress in the 40s, then the American version of Nye Bevan would be standing there, declaring that nobody has ever authored a better socialist document than the Constitution of the United States.

This is not to be read as me trying to actively discourage people from exploring more out-there timelines, of course. I love timeline that are out-there. I indulge in them. When it comes to my own works, I never aim to come up with what is the most likely scenario to have transpired, I aim for what is the most fun, what tells the funniest, most enjoyable story.

But while sewer socialist America timelines likely are far more boring to read than syndicalist America timelines or anarcho-communist America timelines, they are extremely unlikely.
 
One thing that I think is an interesting idea is a successful Socialist movement becoming popular by leaning into racist elements, popularizing the economic ideals and then another more radical Socialist party coming in on a social justice platform, making the US pretty much institutionally Socialist without degrading Democracy

I think this is one of my main complaints with Reds! in that, well, that entire community aren't really trying to come up with a particularly interesting story as much as they are trying to come up with their own version of a socialist utopia version of the United States. Racism? Well, there's a socialist revolution in the 1930s, and then, would you know it, racism has been completely solved! LGBT+ issues? Well, some famous actor steps out of the closet in the 1920s, and come the 40s, nobody has any beef with sexuality or gender identity or anything of the sort.

I'd be inclined to expect that in a Communist version of the United States, you'd still have Jim Crow in the South, you'd still have the same lack of tolerance for homosexuality and transgender expression as in OTL, etc. Exploring the movement for civil rights under these conditions would make for a very compelling and intriguing story.
 
I think this is one of my main complaints with Reds! in that, well, that entire community aren't really trying to come up with a particularly interesting story as much as they are trying to come up with their own version of a socialist utopia version of the United States. Racism? Well, there's a socialist revolution in the 1930s, and then, would you know it, racism has been completely solved! LGBT+ issues? Well, some famous actor steps out of the closet in the 1920s, and come the 40s, nobody has any beef with sexuality or gender identity or anything of the sort.

I'd be inclined to expect that in a Communist version of the United States, you'd still have Jim Crow in the South, you'd still have the same lack of tolerance for homosexuality and transgender expression as in OTL, etc. Exploring the movement for civil rights under these conditions would make for a very compelling and intriguing story.
I am curious who would be lead figures in this more socially conservative Socialist party
 
I honestly very much doubt this, truth be told.

I don't think that it's inconceivable that an explicitly socialist party would be able to become the "Party of the Left" in the United States with a PoD in the late 19th/early 20th century, but I very much think that in ninety-nine cases out of one hundred, they are going to do so within the framework of established political practice in America, and likely be an American take on the British Labour Party or German SPD.

There was this one famous speech that Nye Bevan gave where he said that there was no more revolutionary invention in history than parliamentary democracy. Well, if America were to have a Socialist Party winning the Presidency and Congress in the 40s, then the American version of Nye Bevan would be standing there, declaring that nobody has ever authored a better socialist document than the Constitution of the United States.

This is not to be read as me trying to actively discourage people from exploring more out-there timelines, of course. I love timeline that are out-there. I indulge in them. When it comes to my own works, I never aim to come up with what is the most likely scenario to have transpired, I aim for what is the most fun, what tells the funniest, most enjoyable story.

But while sewer socialist America timelines likely are far more boring to read than syndicalist America timelines or anarcho-communist America timelines, they are extremely unlikely.
Oh, certainly it's overwhelmingly likely for American socialism to look more or less like Western European social democracy - or, failing that, Bolshevik state capitalism or hastily-repainted New Deal machine politics - for the structural reasons you point out. I merely mean to say that a) the possibility space for unusual politics is significantly larger before the American Left polarized on Leninist-antiLeninist lines b) the earlier American socialism comes to power, the less it will be influenced by the choices and idiosyncracies of other countries and the more it will influence those other countries, even unintentionally.

The other point I will say is that I do actually think that governing American Socialism is at least as likely to come out of the agrarian populism of the Greenbacks/People's Party (and later incorporate the urban labor movement) than come out of the urban labor movement - the former, while not quite socialist (but, I think, reasonably close), wielded more political power, got far closer to a majority, and could not as easily be tarred as a movement of foreign bombthrowers and academic scribblers. Which in and of itself presents a number of interesting divergences - such a party is far less likely to use Marx as their Bible and far more likely to be explicitly or implicitly Christian...
 
I am curious who would be lead figures in this more socially conservative Socialist party

I have absolutely no idea. Even assuming a perfect butterfly net making sure that everyone is born at the right time and to the right parents as per the schedule established by OTL, it might very well turn out to be people who in OTL just never went into politics.

The other point I will say is that I do actually think that governing American Socialism is at least as likely to come out of the agrarian populism of the Greenbacks/People's Party (and later incorporate the urban labor movement) than come out of the urban labor movement - the former, while not quite socialist (but, I think, reasonably close), wielded more political power, got far closer to a majority, and could not as easily be tarred as a movement of foreign bombthrowers and academic scribblers.

I agree with your broader points. I think however that if American socialism came out of agrarian populism, it'd be even less likely to be "properly" socialist, because fundamentally, agrarian populists in the United States never had a problem with the principle of private ownership of land or being rich. Their problem was simply that they didn't own enough land privately, that they weren't rich.

The problem is that the rich people own all the good land. The problem is never that individuals per se are allowed to own their own land.

Certainly there's nothing problematic about I owning my own land.

Me owning my own land, why, we couldn't have proper liberty in this country unless I knew that I owned my land and nobody could take it away from me!
 
A lot of the American Socialist movement was ethnic politics. Often German or Jewish or (if anarchist flavored) Italian. And a lot of the German Socialists ended up as Sewer Socialist (ergo, practical good government types). There was also the Scandinavian ethnic factor (Minnesota Farmer-Labor, and North Dakota's Nonpartisan League).

A lot of the lefty progressivism was a kind of class politics in which old family WASPs supported very progressive reforms partly out of a distaste for the new money industrial class.

Western agrarian populism was very focused on particular sorts of bread and butter issues. They wanted better credit terms, public services, stability in the agricultural price markets, better prices for grain elevators, railroads, and warehousing, etc.

Few people were super focused on the ideological stuff of the sort seen in European socialist parties. Meanwhile various parts of these factions don't line up with each other. The kinds of agricultural policies which benefit farmers often are to the detriment of urbanites, for example.



I think if the Democrats do a bit worse in the 1920 election, you could potentially just destroy the Democrats out West and have them be succeeded by a bigger tent Progressive party in the West, Midwest, and New York State. Democrats remain a party of the South and certain northeast urban areas.
 
I agree with your broader points. I think however that if American socialism came out of agrarian populism, it'd be even less likely to be "properly" socialist, because fundamentally, agrarian populists in the United States never had a problem with the principle of private ownership of land or being rich. Their problem was simply that they didn't own enough land privately, that they weren't rich.

The problem is that the rich people own all the good land. The problem is never that individuals per se are allowed to own their own land.

Certainly there's nothing problematic about I owning my own land.

Me owning my own land, why, we couldn't have proper liberty in this country unless I knew that I owned my land and nobody could take it away from me!
Well, part of my point is that "proper socialism" could look substantially different. Certainly the Farmers' Alliance would never have stood for collectivizing their own land - but the Omaha Platform already called for the public ownership of railroads, telegraphs, and telephones; the National Grange and plenty of other movements were big into co-operatives on everything except land ownership (e.g. crop marketing, grain elevators, farm supply, banking); we know from OTL's New Deal that most farmers were fine with the federal government setting prices and conducting central planning; even if it starts out as a purely "farmers' interests" type of thing I can see a situation where a Populist government adopts basically socialist measures and then backfills a justification behind it, one that leaves a space for private property ownership in the land (perhaps even "up to a certain limit" - after all, we like small family farms and don't like big agricultural corporations or private monopolies) but adopts recognizably socialist (though perhaps non-Marxist, or incompletely Marxist) principles not merely as opportunism but, after a few decades contesting power, as genuine belief.

Kind of off topic, but your example reminds me of a funny anecdote in the Cambridge History of Russia:
Ted Hopf said:
...Shakhnazarov relates details of the meeting of the CC commission on Poland that took place in early 1981 under the chairmanship of Mikhail Suslov. The Soviet ambassador to Poland at the time, Boris Aristov, reported that the Polish peasantry, despite its traditional ideas, had turned out to be a far more reliable support for the regime than the working class, which had fallen under the influence of both Solidarity and the Catholic Church. This is heresy to the orthodox Soviet model of a working-class vanguard, and Ponomarev interrupted, saying that the Polish leadership needed to collectivize its private farms. Aristov demurred, repeating that Polish private farmers mostly supported the government. Ponomarev then reminisced about the 1920s and the great feat of collectivization. Suslov, 'a reservoir of quotations from Lenin', cited an appropriate one on collectivization. Suslov and Ponomarev then opined about Lenin and collectivization. Finally, Ustinov said, 'Mikhail Andreevich, Boris Nikolaevich, why are we talking about communes when with each passing day Solidarity is threatening to remove the party from power!?'

I'd be inclined to expect that in a Communist version of the United States, you'd still have Jim Crow in the South, you'd still have the same lack of tolerance for homosexuality and transgender expression as in OTL, etc. Exploring the movement for civil rights under these conditions would make for a very compelling and intriguing story.
I definitely agree - both in the case of a Communist party that starts out racist and continues that way and in the case of a Communist Party that starts out with the same high-minded anti-racist ideals as OTL* but sells its principles for power. (Or one that stakes out a position that's different from Jim Crow but still oppressive - for example, "Southern Black sharecroppers are an oppressed proletariat that needs to join hands with their white brothers and overthrow the plantation class - but organizing that on racial lines is a wrecker plot to incite hatred between the working class - and Northern Black migration is a capitalist plot to drive down the price of labor and break strikes, so we need to introduce internal passports". Or an implementation of the OTL Communist platform plank of "self-determination for the Black Belt" that looks less like actual autonomy and more like, well, the actually existing ethnic SSRs.)

*Yes, I know, plenty of early Reds were incredibly racist, but you know what I mean

A lot of the American Socialist movement was ethnic politics. Often German or Jewish or (if anarchist flavored) Italian. And a lot of the German Socialists ended up as Sewer Socialist (ergo, practical good government types). There was also the Scandinavian ethnic factor (Minnesota Farmer-Labor, and North Dakota's Nonpartisan League).

A lot of the lefty progressivism was a kind of class politics in which old family WASPs supported very progressive reforms partly out of a distaste for the new money industrial class.

Western agrarian populism was very focused on particular sorts of bread and butter issues. They wanted better credit terms, public services, stability in the agricultural price markets, better prices for grain elevators, railroads, and warehousing, etc.
This is true, but I do want to explicitly point out that I don't think it's any less true of the Democrats or Republicans of the time.

(Now I'm thinking about - and this is not more than TLIAD-level fuzzily plausible - the idea of "movement socialism" taking over a previously less ideological party in the manner of OTL "movement conservatism". Say the Red Scare doesn't happen somehow but the alt-Great Depression still does - but the government that gets credit for the recovery is a conservative, relatively laissez-faire, Republican government. As the Old Deal Era curdles into dogmatism, ideological sclerosis, and economic malaise, a new band of ideological renegades backed by a new set of activist groups - labor unions that had stagnant membership for decades but are suddenly growing at a rapid clip, public intellectuals like John Kenneth Galbraith and Michael Harrington, cultural conservatives increasingly uncomfortable with consumerism and all that is solid melting into air, a new generation of muckrakers publicizing corruption in high places... I mean, I'd read it.)
 
This is true, but I do want to explicitly point out that I don't think it's any less true of the Democrats or Republicans of the time.

Sure, but the Republicans and Democrats weren't ideological parties. They were big tent coalitions. A Socialist-dominant USA would be a distinctly ideologically-tinted affair, which is trickier.



(Now I'm thinking about - and this is not more than TLIAD-level fuzzily plausible - the idea of "movement socialism" taking over a previously less ideological party in the manner of OTL "movement conservatism". Say the Red Scare doesn't happen somehow but the alt-Great Depression still does - but the government that gets credit for the recovery is a conservative, relatively laissez-faire, Republican government. As the Old Deal Era curdles into dogmatism, ideological sclerosis, and economic malaise, a new band of ideological renegades backed by a new set of activist groups - labor unions that had stagnant membership for decades but are suddenly growing at a rapid clip, public intellectuals like John Kenneth Galbraith and Michael Harrington, cultural conservatives increasingly uncomfortable with consumerism and all that is solid melting into air, a new generation of muckrakers publicizing corruption in high places... I mean, I'd read it.)

The 1920s were only Conservative in comparison to what came before and after it. The Central bank took a more active role than in older times, some of the first modern welfare programs were rolled out or maintained (crop price regulation, milk for needy mothers, etc.), and the restrictions on regulation that the judiciary did put into place were more of a "go no further" sort than a "rolling back the tide" kind of thing.

Plus, the National Industrial Recovery Act definitely extended the Great Depression. There are New Deal Measures that helped (the bank holiday and breaking from the gold standard), and there are regulatory schemes that have stood the test of time (Federal Deposit Insurance, Securities regulation, etc.), but whether a less regulatory Republican regime is worse than FDR depends on other things. Also, a bunch of what FDR did (like social security, infrastructure programs, etc) was overwhelmingly popular and proto-versions of it were done under Hoover, though at a smaller scale.

New Deal also wasn't in comparison to an Old Deal. It was Franklin Roosevelt harkening back to Theodore's Square Deal.
 
I think if the Democrats do a bit worse in the 1920 election, you could potentially just destroy the Democrats out West and have them be succeeded by a bigger tent Progressive party in the West, Midwest, and New York State. Democrats remain a party of the South and certain northeast urban areas.
Wanted to highlight this because it is an underdiscussed POD. Even though I think the idea of a progressive Farmer-Labor party has become a standard trope in American political TLs.

The Farmer-Labor party quietly performed fairly well in 1920 for a new party that had nominated a completely unknown lawyer to the top of the ticket. Narrowly missing the chance to grab a handful of seats in Congress and performing about as well as the early abolitionist parties all things considered. In a narrow sense, they could have built a sturdier base if they had convinced a better candidate to run in 1920, such as La Follette, who would have been in a much better position to take advantage of post-war ethnic white resentment than in 1924. Another easy pod is to make American involvement in WW1 go far worse, perhaps by entering earlier.

You can build an American NDP out of the conditions that formed the Farmer-Labor party, so long as their voters are ok with being the perennial third-place team. The problem for any socialist/progressive third party, however, is that one-third of the United States, the South, is going to be nigh-impenetrable. Watching a disastrous Democratic campaign led by Davis in 1924 still end with the capital-P Progressive La Follette fail to win anything outside of his home state hammered home to most of the country's progressives and left-leaners that the only way forward was coalition within the Democratic Party. The Populists had come close to cracking the system in Alabama and North Carolina in the early 1890s. By the 20th century, however, the Bourbon Power had reasserted control to such an extent that even more mainstream efforts, such as FDR's 1938 primary campaigns against conservative Dems and the CIO's Operation Dixie failed disastrously.

To marginalize the Democratic Party to the point of being a rump conservative Southern party. A few things could be done such as:
  1. Break open the Democratic Party's strength with urban immigrants. One way to accomplish this could be with a prolonged Irish War of Independence. One where the Wilson and later administrations are still giving aid to Britain. Possibly in tandem with a neutral or Central Powers-aligned Italy. One of the strongest candidates that the Farmer-Labor party ran in 1920 was Joseph A. O'Leary in New York, a former Sinn Fein member put on trial for attacking the United State's WW1 effort in the newspaper he published. I suspect that if O'Leary were elected he would be a Vito Marcantonio-style aberration, but maybe he pushes a few dominoes. The bones are there for something.
  2. Supplant the Democrats in Pennsylvania. The second largest state in the country at the time, Republican machine dominance in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh had led to such an extensive Dem atrophy in PA that by the 1920s, the party was consistently only winning 1-2 of the state's 40 districts, had not had a blue Senator since 1881, and had not held the governor's mansion since 1895. The Democratic Party was so disorganized that Hoover still won the state with a healthy lead in 1932 despite his blowout loss nearly everywhere else. Building a strong foundation in states like Pennsylvania would start to get the Farmer-Labors taken seriously as a party.
Still, to win the presidency, the party would have to unite nearly the entire country west of the Ohio River and pull a shock win in at least two of the following states: New York, Pennsylvania, Michigan, New Jersey, and Massachusetts. A far reach for any primarily progressive, working-class, and anti-machine political organization. All the while the shortcut of compromising with the South is still going to be there. Calling out like a siren.
 
The US supporting Britain in the Irish War leading to Irish-Americans souring on the Democrats + plus Coolidge Veto'ing the 1924 Immigration Act (as he considered historically) with the consequence that there are a lot more left-voting Jews and Italians in the US could do quite a lot.

In the 30s, Long's machine could be annexed to this progressive movement too. Huey Long proceeds to use the Progressive Party / Farmer-Labor Party / Union Party (whatever you wanna call it) as his vehicle to national stardom.
 
I'd be inclined to expect that in a Communist version of the United States, you'd still have Jim Crow in the South, you'd still have the same lack of tolerance for homosexuality and transgender expression as in OTL, etc.
I mean, it'd probably be even worse. Policies to restrict competition to urban workers by banning rural workers moving to cities are unlikely to go well for African Americans.

I agree with your broader points. I think however that if American socialism came out of agrarian populism, it'd be even less likely to be "properly" socialist, because fundamentally, agrarian populists in the United States never had a problem with the principle of private ownership of land or being rich.
"Proper" socialism is incredibly urban supremacist in program. The United States has always had a large population of empowered and commercially integrated farmers, which does work against an urban focused labor party becoming a dominant political force, much less anything more radical.
 
"Proper" socialism is incredibly urban supremacist in program. The United States has always had a large population of empowered and commercially integrated farmers, which does work against an urban focused labor party becoming a dominant political force, much less anything more radical.
If nothing else, I'd bet that any socialist-dominated USA would at most "convince" farmers to work within producer's cooperatives like the Grange-actual collectivization would be somewhere between politically impossible and utterly...inconceivable (as Comrade Vizzini says).
 
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