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AH Run-downs, summaries and general gubbins

This look at international support for South Vietnam doesn’t offer many surprises, but it might be useful fodder for a TL with a broader intervention: https://www.psywarrior.com/AlliesRepublicVietnam.html

The nations involved in helping the Government of Vietnam were: Australia; Belgium; Republic of China; Denmark; Japan; Federal Republic of Germany; Republic of Korea; France; Laos; Greece; Malaysia; Ireland; New Zealand; Italy; Pakistan; Luxembourg; Philippines; The Netherlands; Thailand; Norway; Spain; Switzerland; Iran; United Kingdom; Turkey; Canada; Liberia; Morocco; Argentina; South Africa; Brazil; Tunisia; Costa Rica; Honduras; Ecuador; Uruguay; Guatemala and Venezuela.
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I dare you to create a scenario where all those countries send combat troops to South Vietnam.

Yes, even France.
 
varyar said:
This look at international support for South Vietnam doesn’t offer many surprises, but it might be useful fodder for a TL with a broader intervention: https://www.psywarrior.com/AlliesRepublicVietnam.html



I dare you to create a scenario where all those countries send combat troops to South Vietnam.

Yes, even France.
Click to expand...

It'd be a funnier timeline if it's only the non-NATO members who do.
 
Speaking of which…

I’m starting to think more about East Asia in my In and Out of the Reich setting (Nazis conquer European USSR and bring UK to the negotiating table, don’t ask how), specifically what the impact of thr Nationalists winning the Chinese Civil War will have on Vietnam. I haven’t gotten much farther than “Sucks to be a Communist here” and I picture three possible outcomes.

1) Vietnam, like OTL Taiwan and South Korea becomes a prosperous liberal democracy.
2) Vietnam, like OTL Vietnam with a few differences in details, becomes a not-so-rich authoritarian regime.
3) Vietnam falls in the middle, kind of like OTL Thailand.

What do people more informed about the region think is most plausible?
 
varyar said:
Speaking of which…

I’m starting to think more about East Asia in my In and Out of the Reich setting (Nazis conquer European USSR and bring UK to the negotiating table, don’t ask how), specifically what the impact of thr Nationalists winning the Chinese Civil War will have on Vietnam. I haven’t gotten much farther than “Sucks to be a Communist here” and I picture three possible outcomes.

1) Vietnam, like OTL Taiwan and South Korea becomes a prosperous liberal democracy.
2) Vietnam, like OTL Vietnam with a few differences in details, becomes a not-so-rich authoritarian regime.
3) Vietnam falls in the middle, kind of like OTL Thailand.

What do people more informed about the region think is most plausible?
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Why wouldn't Vietnam still go left? There's no USSR to back them, but without the OTL PRC, the Americans won't have domino theory...
 
Incognitia said:
Why wouldn't Vietnam still go left? There's no USSR to back them, but without the OTL PRC, the Americans won't have domino theory...
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I was thinking the ROC would have some objections to that sort of thing. Even if they don’t actively intervene, they definitely won’t be supporting the Communists, so the odds of Ho Chi Minh winning drop significantly.

I know South Vietnam was a corrupt and unpopular regime, but I think it might have muddled through with the deck substantially stacked in its favor by removing the USSR and PRC. Keeping the Americans out might actually benefit Saigon’s credentials.
 
varyar said:
Speaking of which…

I’m starting to think more about East Asia in my In and Out of the Reich setting (Nazis conquer European USSR and bring UK to the negotiating table, don’t ask how), specifically what the impact of thr Nationalists winning the Chinese Civil War will have on Vietnam. I haven’t gotten much farther than “Sucks to be a Communist here” and I picture three possible outcomes.

1) Vietnam, like OTL Taiwan and South Korea becomes a prosperous liberal democracy.
2) Vietnam, like OTL Vietnam with a few differences in details, becomes a not-so-rich authoritarian regime.
3) Vietnam falls in the middle, kind of like OTL Thailand.

What do people more informed about the region think is most plausible?
Click to expand...
Much depends on how the period post-Japanese surrender goes.

IOTL, the Viet Minh declared independence in August 1945, and were recognised at least tacitly by the ROC (which occupied the country above the 16th parallel) as Ho Chi Minh put a lot of effort into supporting the Nationalist occupation force and getting in good with Chiang. The trouble really got started when the French reasserted their rule in the British occupation zone south of the line (the Chinese facilitated the French north of the line, but with less success) which led to the eight-year struggle against France (and indirectly bolstered the position of the Catholic ruling class as one of the few allies Paris could count in the country), before Dien Bien Phu sees the French and Viet Minh agreeing to divide the country at the 17th parallel. At that point, the US gets involved as Washington and Saigon are both opposed to the Paris-Hanoi agreement, and see Ho Chi Minh as the first domino.

So, a lot of options to play around with here. Off the bat it’s hard to see the French trying to waltz back in. Depending on the status of Free France ITTL (I seem to recall it being vestigial, but forget what the position of Africa was in your TL), it seems highly unlikely de Gaulle will be elbowing his way into Saigon, and I can imagine the British response to Vichy being rather terse. That seems to point to the Viet Minh’s position being cemented at least in the north nine years early, and quite possibly in the south before the end of 1945. If Uncle Ho has buttered up Chiang nearly as much as IOTL, then Hanoi and Nanking should enjoy decent relations for at least as long as it takes to defeat the PRC. That buys Vietnam potentially decades of peace and millions of lives it missed out on historically, and there is an awful lot of blank space you can plausibly fill in there.

And there are some interesting spins you can put on that. Land reform, for instance, was a big part of the programme for IOTL’s North Vietnam in the mid-1950s, but before the ceasefire with the French there was a surprisingly concerted effort to keep the landlords on board with the Viet Minh in the areas it controlled. Absent the First Indochina War, it’s an open question whether this cautious engagement continues or instead the anti-landlord campaigns take place sooner and harsher. Similarly, how does Ho deal with the larger monarchist and Catholic sectors of the population in the south? How does Vietnam’s external position develop; without a great power supporter (assuming China and the US remain friendly) Vietnam is in a much weaker military position - do you see a kind of Titoism take shape by the South China Sea?

The Thailand outcome seems plausible, though I’d also suggest Indonesia as a case study - socialist-inspired nationalist regime takes control post-1945, a coup is followed by authoritarian unpleasantness along the way, and democratisation and industrialisation eventually take place if the OTL hub-and-spoke system happens on schedule.

The wildcard here, of course, is America. What is the attitude of the US towards Communism in a world where the Soviets have not only been defeated but are the frontline against Nazism? Will there be much tolerance for - or even indifference to - a Communist Vietnam that is far from the frontline of the Cold War?
 
POD: Hoover scrapes by in 1932 against Al Smith, leading to Floyd B. Olson winning in 1936. Olson passes much needed reform and is universally beloved, and is succeeded by Vice President and former Missouri Senator Harry Truman in 1943. Frank Lloyd Wright shocks the nation by winning in 1947, and despite an excellent first term where he implemented the Usonian Plan, his second term is beset by health struggles that leads to a group of corrupt sacks of shit coming to power (Lyndon Johnson, of course).

While the well-meaning Upton Sinclair is elected in 1955, he is hamstrung by LBJ's Senate and primaried in 1959. Johnson serves three terms, and is succeeded by his minion protege Abe Fortas in 1971. Large-scale improvements in living conditions and pure inertia (matched with massive right-wing infighting) enable continued Social Democratic rule under Ronald Reagan from 1980 to 1988 and Mario Biaggi from 1988 to 1992.

Despite the stellar economy, Elizabeth Holtzman of the Liberal Progressive Coalition is elected President in 1991. Holtzman proves to be a stunningly competent President, and after she wins the 1995 election in a landslide the SDP leaps into action, engineering a dispute between the left and right wings of the LPC and allowing Dick Cheney to take power. Once in power, the SDP cracks down on opposition in a rather silent way, which paired with a excellent economy allows them to rule for the next 24 years.

Dick Cheney retires after one term, and is succeeded by Vice President Al Gore. And, despite a close call in 2011 against Member of Congress (MC) Barack Obama, Vice President John Edwards is elected President. Edwards actually ends up retiring following a sex scandal, although even that can't stop the SDP machine as they steamroll over California Governor Tom Steyer. After eight years, President Lee decided not to run for re-election, leaving the nomination to Vice President Ted Cruz.

Cruz was horrifically unpopular, and Jason Kander is easily able to defeat him in September. After several decades, the Liberty Alliance will take full control of the United States Federal Government, much to the chagrin of the establishment. The death penalty- already rarely used- and strict drug laws look to be the first to go, while restrictions on Muslim immigration, small business tax cuts, and additional assistance for Ukraine also appear to be on the docket.

31. Herbert Clark Hoover (R), March 4, 1929 - January 20, 1937
32. Floyd B. Olson (SDP), January 20, 1937 - January 31, 1944
33. Harry Truman (SDP), January 31, 1944 - January 31, 1948
34. Frank Lloyd Wright (SDP), January 31, 1948 - January 31, 1956
35. Upton Sinclair (SDP), January 31, 1956 - January 31, 1960
36. Lyndon Johnson (SDP), January 31, 1960 - January 31, 1972
37. Abe Fortas (SDP), January 31, 1972 - January 31, 1980
38. Ronald Reagan (SDP), January 31, 1980 - January 31, 1988
39. Mario Biaggi (SDP), January 31, 1988 - January 31, 1992
40. Elizabeth Holtzman (LPC), January 31, 1992 - January 31, 2000
41. Dick Cheney (SDP), January 31, 2000 - January 31, 2004
42. Al Gore (SDP), January 31, 2004 - January 31, 2012
43. John Edwards (SDP), January 31, 2012 - January 31, 2016
44. Barbara Lee (SDP), January 31, 2016 - Incumbent
45. Jason Kander (LA), Assuming Office on January 31, 2024


Social Democratic Party
Democratic Socialism
Guided Democracy
Internationalism
Social Conservatism (Faction)

Liberty Alliance
Social Democracy
Social Liberalism
Environmentalism
Civic Libertarianism
Libertarian Socialism (Faction)

2023 United States Presidential Election:
1694930628387.png
Jason D. Kander / Kamala D. Harris (LA) - 86,599,471 (55.9%)
Edward T. Cruz / Bernard B. Sanders (SDP) - 63,051,851 (40.7%)

BY GENDER:
Male (47%): 51% Kander - 44% Cruz
Female (53%): 60% Kander - 36% Cruz

BY RACE:
White (60%): 56% Kander - 40% Cruz
Black (15%): 61% Kander - 35% Cruz
Latino (15%): 44% Kander - 49% Cruz
Asian (5%): 70% Kander - 21% Cruz
Other (5%): 53% Kander - 40% Cruz

BY AGE:
18-29 (17%) - 70% Kander - 23% Cruz
30-44 (23%) - 60% Kander - 34% Cruz
45-64 (38%) - 53% Kander - 43% Cruz
65+ (22%) - 51% Kander - 45% Cruz

MOST LA GROUP: College-Educated 18-29 Year Old White Men Making >$100,000 Per Year (1% Of The Electorate) - 83% Kander
MOST SDP GROUP: Non College-Educated 65+ Black Women Making <$30,000 Per Year (1% Of The Electorate) - 80% Cruz
 
Truss Mini-Budget was a contingency fund set aside by BMW following a series of motor vehicle accidents involving Mini Coopers in which the trusses (pillars supporting the car roof) collapsed. De Volkskrant uncovered evidence that BMW had known of flaws in the truss design, but had not issued a recall. As lawsuits from crash victims (and owners of undamaged Coopers) piled up, CFO Quetzi Quarten set aside a contingency fund, which rapidly proved insufficient.

see also: BMW bankruptcy of 2024
 
Don’t know if this is the right thread for it, but I was looking for an Irish-themed vignette-y thing and can’t find it. It’s told through the story of an old man, describing his long, sad life, including Ireland’s brief independence, its genocidal occupation by what seems like an ecofascist British regime, and then apparently a final cataclysm that he escapes, free but forsaken and alone on the point of death.

Does this ring a bell for anyone else?
 
frustrated progressive said:
Don’t know if this is the right thread for it, but I was looking for an Irish-themed vignette-y thing and can’t find it. It’s told through the story of an old man, describing his long, sad life, including Ireland’s brief independence, its genocidal occupation by what seems like an ecofascist British regime, and then apparently a final cataclysm that he escapes, free but forsaken and alone on the point of death.

Does this ring a bell for anyone else?
Click to expand...

It's a list Time Enough did for the List Challenge (the current one of which is still ongoing, with five more days to get an entry in!), and here it is.
 
frustrated progressive said:
Don’t know if this is the right thread for it, but I was looking for an Irish-themed vignette-y thing and can’t find it. It’s told through the story of an old man, describing his long, sad life, including Ireland’s brief independence, its genocidal occupation by what seems like an ecofascist British regime, and then apparently a final cataclysm that he escapes, free but forsaken and alone on the point of death.

Does this ring a bell for anyone else?
Click to expand...
Walpurgisnacht said:
It's a list Time Enough did for the List Challenge (the current one of which is still ongoing, with five more days to get an entry in!), and here it is.
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Oh yeah, put a lot of effort into that one.

Think it’s one of my better works, even if I tend to not go into ghoulish dystopian stuff on a regular basis because it makes me feel bad.

I should probably post it on here or on the main list thread at somepoint.
 
Time Enough said:
Oh yeah, put a lot of effort into that one.

Think it’s one of my better works, even if I tend to not go into ghoulish dystopian stuff on a regular basis because it makes me feel bad.

I should probably post it on here or on the main list thread at somepoint.
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It really is very good-and honestly quite a bit better than most dystopian AH around. I totally get why you don’t like writing in the genre, but you definitely spun gold with it here.
 
frustrated progressive said:
It really is very good-and honestly quite a bit better than most dystopian AH around. I totally get why you don’t like writing in the genre, but you definitely spun gold with it here.
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Why thank you kindly, amusingly I thought I was being a bit harsh with my brief mention of Richard Hunt, but nope, he’s pretty fucking bad.

But yeah, occasionally dipping the toe into dystopia can produce some excellent stuff.
 
Time Enough said:
Why thank you kindly, amusingly I thought I was being a bit harsh with my brief mention of Richard Hunt, but nope, he’s pretty fucking bad.

But yeah, occasionally dipping the toe into dystopia can produce some excellent stuff.
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Frankly I’d never heard of half of the British people in this list, which I suppose isn’t too surprising given how fringe blood and soil anarchism is OTL.
Is Hunt this guy?

Richard Hunt (editor) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
frustrated progressive said:
Frankly I’d never heard of half of the British people in this list, which I suppose isn’t too surprising given how fringe blood and soil anarchism is OTL.
Is Hunt this guy?

Richard Hunt (editor) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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Yes, I read an interview from him today from an obvious crank magazine (it was deciding to talk about Kabblahism which, umm) where he rambles about some real weird primitivism shit and reducing the population etc.
 
frustrated progressive said:
Obviously gentile people talking about Kabbalah is nearly always a red flag.

How do you even find these types?
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Folks like Jorian Jenks have emerged progressively often in AltHist throughout the years, Hunt was found during an occasional skim for stuff on Third Position and National Anarchism (they’re all weird).
 
Time Enough said:
Folks like Jorian Jenks have emerged progressively often in AltHist throughout the years, Hunt was found during an occasional skim for stuff on Third Position and National Anarchism (they’re all weird).
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Interesting.
Honestly kinda surprised that more of these people (at least the ones mentioned in your list) don’t have roots in the Kibbo Kift.
 
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