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AH challenge: Nominal survival of the Ottomans after WW1?

Hendryk

Taken back control yet?
Published by SLP
Location
France
What would have needed to go differently during the Turkish War of Independence, for the Ottoman regime to remain nominally in place instead of being deposed by the Turkish National Movement? I'm calling this an Italian scenario because Mehmed VI (or one of his relatives) would likely be a powerless figurehead, with the real leader being a military strongman, either holding the position of Grand Vizier or claiming a sui generis position. Perhaps, even, Ottoman rule becomes a legal fiction, with the throne held indefinitely vacant (à la Horthy's Hungary) but the regime still stopping short of declaring itself a republic.

And could such a regime manage to maintain a degree of multi-ethnic identity, even if more in the breach than in the observance?
 
I have a feeling Sevres was just too humiliating a discreditation to recover from in any form.
 
I have a feeling Sevres was just too humiliating a discreditation to recover from in any form.
So, could one possible POD be a less harsh Treaty of Sèvres? Either that, or the Ottoman delegates, aware that their compliance with Entente demands would cause Turkish nationalism to turn on them, walk out of the negotiations and bet on the French and British not having the stomach for a protracted war in Asia Minor?
 
So, could one possible POD be a less harsh Treaty of Sèvres? Either that, or the Ottoman delegates, aware that their compliance with Entente demands would cause Turkish nationalism to turn on them, walk out of the negotiations and bet on the French and British not having the stomach for a protracted war in Asia Minor?

Less harsh Sèvres might work but I'm not sure France or Britain were interested in that.

As for the latter, I suspect without a formal peace treaty you'd have seen a lot more Franco-British support for the Greeks, and maybe an actual establishment of Kurdistan and Wilsonian Armenia as useful proxies against 'rogue' Turkey. Maybe the Ottoman Emperor might have survived in all this, but looking at the situation there I'm just not sure there was any interest at all in keeping them around (admittedly I'm not an expert at all).
 
Less harsh Sèvres might work but I'm not sure France or Britain were interested in that.
Would an earlier peace perhaps work? If due to [reasons] the Middle East campaign is wrapped up earlier with the Ottomans having retreated to lines broadly similar to the current day Republic's south-eastern borders whilst the Western Front is still in full swing they might be willing to be more lenient than our timeline for a quick separate peace having already gained what they wanted.
 
Would an earlier peace perhaps work? If due to [reasons] the Middle East campaign is wrapped up earlier with the Ottomans having retreated to lines broadly similar to the current day Republic's south-eastern borders whilst the Western Front is still in full swing they might be willing to be more lenient than our timeline for a quick separate peace having already gained what they wanted.

They'd want free access through the straights as well, but that could be possible I think.
 
They'd want free access through the straights as well...
That's a very good point. There'd no doubt be some haggling but evacuation of the coastal forts, a small numbers of observers to keep an eye on things, and it being limited to merchant shipping seems like a decent compromise; it avoids the humiliation of having the capital occupied and even the Russians would probably agree for access to outside supplies again.

The real trick is timing – you need to get the deal done before the Greeks enter the war and start making demands. A rump Ottoman Empire with borders similar to the Republic's, less Kars, that avoids the Greco-Turkish War might have a chance.
 
The real trick is timing – you need to get the deal done before the Greeks enter the war and start making demands. A rump Ottoman Empire with borders similar to the Republic's, less Kars, that avoids the Greco-Turkish War might have a chance.
Considering how volatile Greek politics were between 1914 and 1917, could one perhaps have the pro-neutrality faction hold out longer against the Venizelists, so that by the time Greece joins the Entente a deal has already been negotiated with the Ottomans?

Or, a possibility that I don't think anyone has explored yet, the Entente bungles its involvement in the Greek "national schism", resulting in outright civil war between the Royalists and Venizelists?
 
In Greece, the 'pro-German sympathies' alleged of King Constantine were pretty certainly not as strong as the allegations made by the Venizelists. Nor was the influence on politics and 'German alignment' of his wife Queen Sophie - who was not close to her brother the Kaiser and was personally relatively liberal in her views, like her mother the late Empress Frederick (Princess Royal Victoria of the UK, eldest daughter of Queen Victoria). A mixture of Venizelist propaganda against them as 'traitors to the Allies who should be deposed' in 1915-16 to panic the Allies into removing them, and Allied justification of doing that in 1916-17, have exaggerated the actual degree of threat of the Constantinist regime aligning with Germany in 1915-16; rather, C seems to have wanted to stay neutral. The Allies wanted the Greeks to militarily back the embattled Serbs in the N of Serbia and their own planned HQ at Salonica for the Serb front, and also to support the Dardanelles offensive; so they were sucked into Greek politics to achieve that when Constantine sacked his PM Venizelos who was 'signed up' to what the Allies wanted.

Given the Allies' naval power and ability to blockade Athens (or the Peloponnese if the royal govt fled there as the Allies advanced on the capital), Constantine holding out and sucking the Allies into a lengthy stand-off was not a viable option without a much bigger and still universally loyal Greek army and navy. Nor would the Allies have tolerated Greek neutrality unless they were bogged down too much elsewhere to intervene. But there is an alternative scenario dependant on outside developments. Arguably the stalemate that quickly occurred at the Dardanelles and the need to stage a diversion could have played out into a different Allied war-plan than concentrating on Greece, if the Serbs had been putting up a stronger resistance against a weaker German-AH attack in 1915 - eg by holding onto the Belgrade area and threatening Hungary as a result of the Russians not being routed in East Prussia in 1914 (better commanders and ammunition and not being drawn into a trap). Then there would be no great Russian retreat across Poland in 1915 and instead the Russians can press forward against Austria-Hungary to the S, threatening to cross the Carpathians or doing so; the AH would have had to pull back their troops from invading Serbia again, the Germans would have been too busy in East Prussia to send men to the Belgrade region as in OTL, and the Balkan war would be less in danger of a German victory so the Allies are not desperate to establish a bridgehead in N Greece and send troops into Serbia. That way, the Greek crisis is later or longer drawn-out.

Alternately, the Allies could have considered an abortive scheme in 1915-16 to cut the Ottoman rail link from Constantinople to Syria (and thus wreck supplies to the Turkish armies in the Sinai and Iraq) by landing troops in Cilicia or near Antioch to take Iskenderun, which would have entailed a large naval commitment there, and landed thousands of troops in this area, they would not have had the men and ships available to coerce Greece; thus the latter crisis would have been strung out for longer or not seen as so crucial to winning the war.

If Constantine's father King George I (born Prince William of Denmark, from an anti-German royal family and married to the Russian Grand Duchess Olga) had not been assassinated in a one-off 'hit' by a maverick gunman in Salonica in 1913, aged 68, he could still have been on the throne and not been perceived as a pro-German threat by the Allies (as egged on by Venizelos). If he does not dismiss V but signs up to Allied plans, or is able to spin out negotiations for his entry to the war for months without the immanent danger of Allied attack as he is trusted in London and Paris to resist Germany ,there is no Allies vs Germany showdown. The Allies can proceed straight to Salonica in 1916 and as a result can hold up the German occupation of Serbia easier or open up a new front against Bulgaria; this distracts the Ottomans into helping the Germans in Serbia and if the Germans are unable to make a major contribution in Serbia in 1916 due to continuing stalemate or AH defeat in Poland/ Galicia the Turks are in a militarily vulnerable position in Europe even if they have won at Gallipoli.

if the Germans were not in a safe position of mastery in Serbia (and Poland) by 1916 and the Allies were installed in Salonica in force earlier with no Greek distraction, the Ottomans could be crumbling with their need to defend NE Anatolia from a Russian invasion (reaching Erzurum in OTL) and Iraq from invasion via Basra up the Euphrates. Possibly the Ottomans could then have 'cut and run' and sued for a truce if they had had less determined leadership who were less committed to the Germans - for example, a wider group of 'Young Turk' officers dominating the ruling junta since 1913 than Enver and his inner circle, or else a non-CUP (Young Turk) military and civilian ruling regime. This would have needed a wider backing group for drastic reform in 1913-14 from within the existing senior Ottoman civilian and military elite rather than the CUP being the ones who had both the vision and the brute force to take over - any liberal civilian politicians would have been short of military and court backing and so unlikely to prevail unless backed by a more strong and determined Sultan than Mehmed V.

Given the catastrophic collapse of the Ottoman armies and administrative control in the SE Balkans in 1912-13, which would lead to a backlash against the 'failing' elite in any case and probable coups, any new govt in the aftermath of this disaster would have been vulnerable to coups for 'selling out to the West' if it accepted the loss of Macedonia,Thrace, Albania etc. The pro-British regime that was set up in the capital under new Grand Vizier Mehmed Kamil in late 1912 would have been likely to fall to angry nationalist officers, and the younger and politically moderate/ pro-Allied civilian Ottoman nobles lacked stable military support against the determined and coherent plotters in the CUP (the 'Young Turks' led by Enver, Cemal and Talaat). But did the CUP have to be the sole beneficiaries of this? Like the Bolsheviks in Russia, is their victory seen as inevitable because they had luck as well as ruthless and well-organised leadership on their side?


In OTL Cemal was made military governor of the capital at this crucial point in early 1913 and could thus aid his friends by arresting and intimidating enemies, and the disgrace of the treaties surrendering control of the lost territories enabled the YTs to secure British-backed and moderate civilian Grand Vizier Kamil's removal. Enver was able to lead a famous raid on the govt offices in January 1913 to secure control of the ministries by force and eliminate his rivals, and a leading general (Nazim) who had been negotiating for CUP help but turned them down was shot - probably silenced by Enver's men as he knew too much about the CUP's murky tactics. As the Bulgarians (who had recently taken Edirne/ Adrianople the old capital) turned on and fought the Rumanians Enver secured his reputation by leading an army to retake Edirne. The mysterious assassination of war minister Shevket (an alternative source of loyalty for the troops and a possible govt leader) in July then led to a retaliatory purge by the CUP which silenced the liberals politicians and the old regime loyalists,and the CUP had secured full control. But if either the January or July coups had gone awry, eg by details leaking out in advance and the loyalists being rallied by a capable commander or by the worried British ambassador (who was keen to see the govt sticking to the ceasefire and so to keep the CUP out of power but in OTL failed to react quickly), Enver could have ended up dead in a shootout and the other CUP leadership arrested or in flight to the provinces to start another provincial military rebellion (as per the 1909 revolt). Or Enver could have been killed in the fighting at Edirne by a stray shell?

That way a more moderate regime keeps power, backed up by reformists who desert the failing CUP like prince Mehmed Halim, and even if anger at the Allies for their allowing the loss of European Turkey plus German military and financial offers secure a German-Ottoman alliance in 1914 the Ottoman leadership in 1914-17 is more cautious and less energised. It is probably led by court-allied generals and may have civilian
allies in office, both more likely than the CUP to think of approaching the Allies and less ultra-nationalist.
That way, once the war turns against them (but not yet fatally so), as I have outlined above, they could decide to cut their losses and negotiate - like Austria-Hungary's new emperor Charles was apparently trying to do in 1917 and like Ferdinand of Bulgaria did in autumn 1918. if the regime has a grip on its military personnel and has purged the most organised and ruthless CUP leaders, at the worst this could lead to a limited revolt and civil war. Either side could win, and the govt could be accused by the CUP or other radicals of selling out to the infidel Allies. But if there is a rather more determined and well-known Ottoman prince of the younger generation available to act as a focus for regime loyalty and he is backed by capable generals, they could prevail if the Allies are still fighting in France and so are not too insistent on harsh terms (eg occupying Constantinople) that will energise Turkish rebels to fight on and evict the new regime. That way we end up with a conservative if military-led elite regime staying in power in the capital through the 1920s, rallying nationalist opinion around the dynasty - with a 'puppet' sovereign for an autocratic nationalist govt like the 1920s Primo de Rivera govt in Spain or the ruling conservative oligarchy in OTL Bulgaria after 1923?
 
Another side-result of Ottoman Turkey's survival: Boris Johnson's great-grandfather , the last Interior Minister of the Sultanate in 1922, is not killed in the fall of the Sultanate as the Allied-backed regime falls, but survives as a leading minister and can bring his son up safely in Constantinople. The latter does not stay permanently with his mother's family in the UK and take a British name; his father can launch him into Turkish elite politics with the Sultanate surviving into the 1930s. So we get all sorts of butterflies for the UK 90 years down the line...
 
.... rather, Constantine seems to have wanted to stay neutral.
Works for me. If in the Middle Eastern sphere, I won't speak to the Balkans, things are going better it reduces the pressure to try and bring Greece in such that they can probably make a deal with the Ottomans without Greek complications. Even if they're dragged in a bit later the issue has already been settled.


So we get all sorts of butterflies for the UK 90 years down the line...
If the Middle East theatre is drawn to a conclusion earlier than our timeline then considering the number of people who potentially died but live, conversely lived but now die in another theatre, and the people or events they affect during the war, there's going to be a whole host of butterflies that politics nearly a century later will be unrecognisable.
 
There's another potential side-effect of the scenarios which I outlined, with the Ottomans (probably under different and less nationalist hard-line leadership) giving up the struggle earlier - which presumably means the likelihood of:
(a) 'Independence' for pro-Allied regimes in Syria, Palestine and the Mesopotamian provinces, which are coalesced as in OTL into one Allied-aligned new state with the West's troops in charge of the Mosul/ Kirkuk region and oil fields. (The Turkish army would have to pull back to defend the Asia Minor homeland and fight off any revolts by angry nationalist generals or the Kurds.) As this would at the most occur when the Allies had landed at Iskenderun and swooped on the Berlin-Baghdad railway to secure Aleppo and Cilicia, and T E Lawrence and co. have liberated the Jordan-Aqaba-Mecca rail link route but not got near Damascus nor has Allenby got far North from Sinai, presumably the existing pr-Ottoman civil servant and merchant elites of the main cities of the Levant are handed control by the Allied forces - most of which are still bringing the war to an end in France as this is probably in 1917.

The Arabs are in a weaker position than at the end of the war in OTL when the Allies had conquered Jerusalem and Damascus, and possibly the Ottomans are able to shore up the civilian elites in Syria, Palestine and 'Iraq' by agreement with the under-staffed Allied there to secure friendly regimes and stability for the moment. At most, the Hashemites, presumably in control with Lawrence of the rail link as far N as Amman, may gain a new kingdom as Allied nominees in Jordan due to the greater Arab population (hostile to the Turks) there in order to stop them fighting on and trying to take Syria, but they will not be able to get either Syria or Iraq unless inter-elite struggles there turn to civil war and their British patrons think a 'local' king could shore up stability. As in OTL, the French will impose a client regime in Damascus - but with a weaker military presence there than in OTl they will have to tread more carefully until after the war.

(b) If Russia is still fighting, the Allies would demand access via Constantinople to the Black Sea to land troops and supplies in the Crimea or at Odessa and stabilise the S end of the Eastern Front. But the Allies do not occupy Constantinople as the ceasefire-terms would be more even-handed with an earlier Ottoman-negotiated truce and a stronger Turkish army in place - so Turkey seems less humiliated and the Sultan and Grand Vizier less 'Allied puppets', meaning less liklihood of a nationalist flight to the Anatolian interior to fight on. If the Allies are able to secure the Crimea and link up to the Russian armies in the Kiev-Odessa regions, with this occurring in 1917 before the Provisional Govt falls (or less likely before the Czar is overthrown), then this precedes the OTL Russian collapse in the South and the treaty of Brest-Litovsk; Ukraine is still in Russian hands. The German/ Russian front stabilises for 1917-18 West of Kiev. So as the Provisional Govt collapses the Allies have a reasonably-sized military contingent in Kiev and Odessa to shore up the High Command there against Bolshevik mutinies or takeover, and there is no Bolshevik occupation of Kiev; the Whites can gravitate to a surviving redoubt of Czarist officers in the old Imperial army in Ukraine under Allied protection. That way, we get a stronger White military position in the South of Russia in the Civil War, unless hampered by Ukrainian nationalist/ Cossack revolt stirred up by Bolshevik agitators, and logically a stronger Allied military move into the Caucasus to shore up the new independent regimes in Georgia and Azerbaijan and control the latter's oil (which in OTL was done briefly by Rudyard Kipling's old schoolfriend Maj-General Dunsterville, aka the original Stalky of RK's novel 'Stalky and Co).

(c ) Does an Allied client regime survive past 1922 in Azerbaijan and ditto in Georgia, with a relatively friendly Ottoman state to the West instead of a hostile anti-Allied Kemalist Turkey? The situation of an independent Armenia would be rather awkward, if it was still claiming Turkish lands and full of refugees from the E Anatolian purges of 1915-16. And can the Allies and a stronger White Russian military power controlling Kiev keep the Bolsheviks back in 1919 and preserve a Ukrainian/ White Russian client state as a 'cordon sanitaire' for the Allies to make sure the Bolsheviks cannot get to the Black Sea? Given the long supply-routes and the logistics, a push Northwards by the White Army towards Moscow (by Deniken in 1919 as in OTL?) might even take Moscow but would be lucky to hang onto it if the Bolsheviks fought on from St Petersburg and the rural populace was hostile due to peasants fearing that the aristos wanted their estates back. But we could end up with Deniken or Wrangel imposed as an Allied viceroy at the head of a military junta in Kiev , backed up by refugee members of the sacked Constituent Assembly; and the majority of the refugee White movement from the North would settle in S Russia not in Berlin, France and Yugoslavia. Russia would end up divided into a pro-Allied and independent Communist state, as China did in 1945.

I suggest in my second 'If Byzantium had survived' book , to be published by Sealion, that if there had been a pro-Allied and rampantly Orthodox Byz state in Constantinople as of 1918-21 this could well have kept up a pro-Allied 'White' regime in S Russia through the 1920s. But a friendly Ottoman state , needing Allied military and economic help to feed its populace and keep nationalist junior officers under control, could do this too. And arguably if there had been a less paranoid Sultan in charge pre-1908 who had kept on a neutered National Assembly after 1876 instead of closing it, and managed to head a semi-parliamentary (albeit 'rigged') govt , we would have had a stronger liberal civilian presence in Constantinople politics in 1908-13 and some pro-liberal Ottoman princes available to be used as a focus for patriotism and stability in the wartime crises. In OTL the harsh police/ intelligence supervision and exiling of dissidents pre-1908 by Abdul Hamid prevented this sort of 'younger generation' leadership emerging apart from militant nationalist junior officers. If they had, I can see an equivalent for the Ottomans of the sort of regime that the Allies set up in Iraq - a semi-Westernised younger monarch and a cabal of bureaucrats and senior officers, at risk from alienated nationalist juniors - but run by the local dynasty of prestigious long standing so more secure than the Hashemite regime in Baghdad in the 1920s-30s.
 
I suspect the Czechoslovak foreign legion might end up in Ukraine rather than crossing Siberia in that sort of a situation, which could have some interesting effects on things.
 
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