A Myth is Good for a While.

[David Flin]

The start of an irregular series on myths and legends from around the world. This is about Siwash Rock, Vancouver.

Discuss Here.

 

[Gryphon]

(Small point regarding some of the words here: siwash/siawash is a word for any local Native, and a word that entered the trade jargon of the Pacific Northwest by corruption from the French and English sauvage/savage. As you might guess, that last word has had a bit of a rough patch lately and while for the most part it's gone less recognised than a lot of other more obviously vitriolic or distasteful phrasings, there is some increasing awareness of its use as, effectively, a slur, and I believe a handful of place names have been changed recently to avoid it- there is, in fact, a proposal to change the name of the specific rock mentioned here. Please note, I am by no means qualified to speak on this- I'm just an amateur who has been interested in historical Chinook Jargon, warts and all- and I am not particularly well informed about the details beyond the meanings of the actual words, but it seems worth noting.)

 

[David Flin]

I'll check up on that. I'd note that it was used by a local Native member of the Museum of Anthropology in August 2024, so I made the assumption that it was safe to use the term.

Edit: Relevant text changed to:
Siwash Rock, Vancouver. There is currently a debate on changing the name of the feature to Slhx̱í7lsh (not a typo), which means Standing Man in Squamish, as the name Siwash - a Chinook word derived from the French sauvage is considered inappropriate. The debate is currently ongoing. As the name is currently Siwash Rock, that is the name I'll be using. No disrespect is intended.

 

[Gryphon]

I'll check up on that. I'd note that it was used by a local Native member of the Museum of Anthropology in August 2024, so I made the assumption that it was safe to use the term.

It is my understanding- and please note as I said above I am not qualified to speak on this in any way that matters, only for my own understanding- that it's not so much an active issue as it is one of those 'hey that's kinda messed up we should probably do better at some point' issues at the moment- it certainly lacks the punching power of the Washington Commanders' former name, say. No one will fault you for using it- I certainly don't- it's just one of those things where it feels like it's worth pointing out that, hey, this is actually a thing.

'Sagalie/sahalie', incidentally, means 'high'/'high above', and 'tyee' is loosely translated as 'chief' but could probably be more accurately translated colloquially as 'big man' or 'head honcho'- so 'sahalie tyee' simply means 'the chief up above' which is, honestly, a pretty delightful way to translate the cultural concept of God.

 

[David Flin]

'Sagalie/sahalie', incidentally, means 'high'/'high above', and 'tyee' is loosely translated as 'chief' but could probably be more accurately translated colloquially as 'big man' or 'head honcho'- so 'sahalie tyee' simply means 'the chief up above' which is, honestly, a pretty delightful way to translate the cultural concept of God.

I love that.

 

[Gryphon]

Edit: Relevant text changed to:
Siwash Rock, Vancouver. There is currently a debate on changing the name of the feature to Slhx̱í7lsh (not a typo), which means Standing Man in Squamish, as the name Siwash - a Chinook word derived from the French sauvage is considered inappropriate. The debate is currently ongoing. As the name is currently Siwash Rock, that is the name I'll be using. No disrespect is intended.

It's a thorny thing because unless you know, it's easy to miss, and even if no one would blame you (you're obviously not trying to cause offense and it's not an especially pressing issue, as seen by the fact that the proposal I linked has been dormant) sometimes stuff is weird, and we like to use our powers for good.

 

[David Flin]

My rule of thumb is to call people, places, and things by the name that the relevant people wish them to be called.

 

[Thande]

My rule of thumb is to call people, places, and things by the name that the relevant people wish them to be called.

Even if that often offends a rather larger or louder group of people who have nothing to do with them, but have a microphone and an opinion.

 

[Alexander Rooksmoor]

I guess one of the challenges is that many AH stories are written close to the point of divergence and thus insufficient time has passed for new myths and legends to develop. I do think this was an aspect that the TV series Timeless handled pretty well. Just one small example is how the team's intervention meant that 'Weapon of Choice' became the first Ian Fleming James Bond book rather than 'Casino Royale'.

One challenge is getting it across to readers that the new story/legend is there because of the change. Unless the reader is really familiar with the culture of the time portrayed, then they are unlikely to pick it up unless the author explicitly highlights this as a change. In addition, this is only likely to impinge, as in the example given, in terms of legends that only came about because of the divergence we are focusing on. Thus if your novel does not have a Second World War, there is no 'Dunkirk Spirit' but still the Angel of Mons would be in place as the Great War of our world still happened.I imagine there are some of us here that know what legends came out of the American Civil War (not me among them) but I have often engaged with books which envisage a different civil war. Yet, if you include the story about "Billy the Hero" I would not know if that was something in our American Civil War or simply the alternate you had produced.

 

[Arthur_Phuxache]

Even if that often offends a rather larger or louder group of people who have nothing to do with them, but have a microphone and an opinion.

Thus if your novel does not have a Second World War, there is no 'Dunkirk Spirit' but still the Angel of Mons would be in place as the Great War of our world still happened.I

Similarly, the Dunquerque evacuation is a humiliating military defeat of the British Army, whereas the 'miracle of Dunkirk' is an unspecified supernatural event in Kent, possibly involving the remote detection of unidentified flying objects.