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Without the 1940 Fall of France, is there still an Israel?

Jukato

New member
Without the 1940 Fall of France, is there still an Israel? Or would the lack of a Holocaust--or at least its much, much smaller severity--be enough to prevent Israel from coming into being in this TL? If so, are Eastern European Jewry simply going to stay in Eastern Europe and push to be given more rights there, presumably eventually succeeding?

Thoughts?

FWIW, there would be many more surviving Jews for the Zionist project if Israel does still come into being, but that's what I'm curious about here.
 
By this point, Britain's already committed to the basic idea of a Jewish State and zionists are working to form it in the Mandate. It might not be Israel as we recognise it but something is going to be formed there.

For the big details, it depends on what happens after France doesn't fall? If Germany still has to fight France as well as Britain (and Italy likely stays out of all this), it'll be far harder to try and go after the Soviet Union, but that still leaves a massive chunk of Europe under Nazi control for long enough that a lot of Jews are going to be killed and a lot of survivors emigrating.
 
yea, I do think this helps a lot of communities in places that were already weakly controlled or later controlled by the Axis-it's probably good for Italian and Greek Jews, and maybe Hungarian (aka "places with non-Nazi fascists", kinda like France ironically) but things are going to be bad in like Poland and Lithuania, plus Austria.
 
By this point, Britain's already committed to the basic idea of a Jewish State and zionists are working to form it in the Mandate. It might not be Israel as we recognise it but something is going to be formed there.

For the big details, it depends on what happens after France doesn't fall? If Germany still has to fight France as well as Britain (and Italy likely stays out of all this), it'll be far harder to try and go after the Soviet Union, but that still leaves a massive chunk of Europe under Nazi control for long enough that a lot of Jews are going to be killed and a lot of survivors emigrating.
Are you sure? Britain had already restricted Jewish immigration with the 1939 White Paper and in response Jewish militias in Palestine started attacking British authorities. There were many within Britain who started sympathizing with the Arab cause as a result, iirc some British soldiers in Palestine were so radicalized they started saying "Heil Hitler" in an attempt to provoke the Jews.
 
Partition was already proposed in 1936 and 1937; and most of the individuals who fought on the Jewish side in the 48-49 war were already there before the Second World War broke out. On the other hand, a lot of Jewish soldiers got battle experience fighting for the British in WW2 in Syria-Lebanon. Also, many of the weapons they used were German weapons sold to them or shipped to them by the USSR and Czechoslovakia.

Nazi logistics in France were shoestring. If they don't secure the knockout, the Germans will get pushed back quickly. Germany's ammo stocks weren't great either, and the country's fiscal situation wasn't very good (pillaging France and other wealthy countries solved a lot of this issue in the short-term). If there's a setback, the German military might just oust Hitler. Army CinC von Brauhitsch and General Staff chief Halder when discussed a coup against Hitler in November 1939.

If France doesn't fall, Barbarossa is certainly delayed or doesn't happen at all. By June 1942 the Red Army's build-up is complete. They have 500 highly mechanized divisions near the German Border. Germany attacked with 120 divisions in 1941 OTL. Stalin generally wasn't the type to initiate costly wars though. He could be aggressive, but typically in ways that were sort of low cost (Finland, partitioning Poland, Romania, etc.). Stalin OTL seemed to hope the Germans and Western Allies would beat each other senseless to the point that pushing further west would be similarly low-cost. If the Western Allies push into the Rhineland, Stalin probably decides it's a good time to march west into Germany.

No Holocaust means no refugee issue, which likely means the Negev isn't attached to Israel. But no Holocaust means more Jews who can immigrate to Israel.
 
Are you sure?

Pretty much. Despite the conflict with militias and the restrictions and the sympathies to Arabs IOTL, the British government hadn't dropped the commitment to at some point doing a Jewish state before 1940. In this timeline, at best you still have Jews dying in ghettos and concentration camps (and at worst a smaller, shorter campaign of genocide). To get a timeline where there's no Jewish state, I think you'd have to prevent a Nazi Germany so a lot less Jews are interested in emigrating (or have little choice) and then it gradually fizzles out as an idea.
 
If the war is several years shorter, Britain also will have a better fiscal and military circumstance. The exit from Palestine may occur later than 1948, and probably would be a more orderly one.

Perhaps this is what is produced. I tinkered with this map I found online. Britain would be happy to make Jordan bigger rather than set up an Arab Nationalist state run by the Mufti.

1672177345410.png
 
A lot depends on how things shake out over 1940-42.

If we assume that France manages to stave off defeat long enough to rally, effectively breaking the Nazi war machine (at least for a few months), there’s a good chance the German economy will collapse under its own weight or the German army will overthrow Hitler (on the grounds the masterstroke of the campaign was his idea (or at least he claimed the credit)) and seek peace. The SS didn’t have the power they had later in the war, so while the Holocaust would still be incredibly unpleasant and horrific it would be much more limited in duration. The Jews outside the Reich at the time would be relatively safe.

If we end up with a rough frozen peace (Germany keeps Norway, Denmark and West Poland; Mussolini gets to play peacemaker instead of starting a war he can’t win), there’d be fewer Jews trying to get to Israel. There’d also be less impetus for an independent Jewish state, although there were plenty of people who wanted one anyway. If France and the UK have to push into Germany in 1941, with all the devastation and expenditure that would imply (and the USSR a brooding presence to the east), things would be different.

Really, it depends on just how this version of WW2 plays out.
 
Without the 1940 Fall of France, is there still an Israel? Or would the lack of a Holocaust--or at least its much, much smaller severity--be enough to prevent Israel from coming into being in this TL? If so, are Eastern European Jewry simply going to stay in Eastern Europe and push to be given more rights there, presumably eventually succeeding?

Thoughts?

FWIW, there would be many more surviving Jews for the Zionist project if Israel does still come into being, but that's what I'm curious about here.

The most likely end result of a non 1940 Fall of France is a 1941 Fall of France, so if there is an Israel or not depends primarily on what happens after that. Without the defeat of France within six weeks, the political climate in the U.S. is far different and there is obvious knock on effects with regards to the USSR with a delayed/cancelled Barbarossa. A Three Way (Probably eventually 4-way, given Japan) Cold War between the Anglo-Americans, Nazi Europe and Soviet Russia probably excludes an Israel, but a 1942 late Eastern Front can ensure it; just depends on if the Soviets bungle it or not. If so, again, can probably write off Israel but in the latter case it is assured and probably much stronger/populated than historically.
 
The most likely end result of a non 1940 Fall of France is a 1941 Fall of France, so if there is an Israel or not depends primarily on what happens after that. Without the defeat of France within six weeks, the political climate in the U.S. is far different and there is obvious knock on effects with regards to the USSR with a delayed/cancelled Barbarossa. A Three Way (Probably eventually 4-way, given Japan) Cold War between the Anglo-Americans, Nazi Europe and Soviet Russia probably excludes an Israel, but a 1942 late Eastern Front can ensure it; just depends on if the Soviets bungle it or not. If so, again, can probably write off Israel but in the latter case it is assured and probably much stronger/populated than historically.
Why the last sentence in particular?
 
Why the last sentence in particular?

Most assumptions of a 1942 Barbarossa speculate it will go very badly for the Germans; from a paper prospective, I can see why. However, the Red Army's force dispositions in a 1942 scenario would involve them launching a pre-emptive offensive or getting into position to do so, which is exactly the sort of the Battle the Germans wanted to fight in 1941 and we know from 1942-1943 that, even with experience at war for a year or more, the Germans still retained the tactical advantage on the Soviets. The failures of Second Kharkov could be writ large across the whole front.
 
The most likely end result of a non 1940 Fall of France is a 1941 Fall of France, so if there is an Israel or not depends primarily on what happens after that. Without the defeat of France within six weeks, the political climate in the U.S. is far different and there is obvious knock on effects with regards to the USSR with a delayed/cancelled Barbarossa. A Three Way (Probably eventually 4-way, given Japan) Cold War between the Anglo-Americans, Nazi Europe and Soviet Russia probably excludes an Israel, but a 1942 late Eastern Front can ensure it; just depends on if the Soviets bungle it or not. If so, again, can probably write off Israel but in the latter case it is assured and probably much stronger/populated than historically.

German supply lines were overstretched and shoestring. Germany also had debt well in excess of its GDP and ammunition stocks were depleting.

Without the insanely improbable fluke that was the quick folding of France OTL, Germany will have millions of men cut off from logistical support and the remainder will be pushed back into Germany proper. I would expect a coup attempt should the Western Allies make it into the Rhineland.

Even if Lend-Lease doesn't happen because of domestic American politics, there will still be destroyers-for-bases and lend-lease [Edit: Cash and Carry]. The Daladier Proposal of colonies for right to purchase on credit also could be an option. I saw (unsourced) on the other website that the British considered the idea of colonies-for-credit too (the discussed colonies being Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, and Belize, with the US wanting to cede Belize to Mexico and Guatemala as part of the Good Neighbor policy).



If the war is several years shorter, Britain also will have a better fiscal and military circumstance. The exit from Palestine may occur later than 1948, and probably would be a more orderly one.

Perhaps this is what is produced. I tinkered with this map I found online. Britain would be happy to make Jordan bigger rather than set up an Arab Nationalist state run by the Mufti.

View attachment 63993


Revisiting this, perhaps I was wrong. Yes, there were partition proposals in 1937-1938 OTL. Then there was the similar proposal in 1944 for a United Confederal Palestine with internal borders following similar lines. Then there was a 1946 proposal for a continued British mandate with two self-governing provinces along the above mentioned lines and the Negev and Jerusalem remaining British-controlled.

Without a protracted war, I question if the British would feel the need to urgently leave by 1948. There would continue to be immigration to Palestine, a defeat of Germany in 1940/1941 still means some 2.2 million Jews in Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and non-Soviet Poland who have had everything stripped from them; plus the ~300,000 or so German Jews in the Netherlands, Belgium, and France who were still trying to figure out what to do next. And the Jews of the Arab World likewise would have already had a strong desire to migrate. It seems highly likely that there would be some degree of pressure upon Britain to let some of them into the Mandate (100,000 was the amount proposed historically) and there would be illegal immigration as well (which became bad optics for the British when they put Holocaust survivors attempting illegal immigration by sea in internment camps on Cyprus). 100,000 attempted to migrate illegally from 1939 to 1948, with half captured and put into camps in Cyprus and another 1600 dying at sea.

1676146563828.png

Furthermore, even a few years delay in the Palestine issue could result in a very big difference on the ground. In 1948 OTL, there already appeared to be emerging under the table discussions for an alliance of Jordan, Iraq, and Turkey against Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. As soon as Syria and Jordan gain independence in 1946, Abdullah called for the immediate unification of the two under him. He thought he'd have British support and support of the Syrian public which he felt had pan-Syrian sympathies. Many top Syrian officers may have been in contact with Abdullah or loyal to Abdullah. Abdullah wanted his Greater Syria, and was scheming with the Haurani Druze to rise up and serve as a basis for Transjordan to take Syria (as the Druze had already threatened to secede and join Jordan). The Syrian military was small and weak, but the Arab Legion (and the Druze Atrash) were organized and known for military prowess. For what it's worth, Abdullah reached out to the Druze in Lebanon as well about setting up his proposed country. (Source here).


No Fall of France (and thus Britain not having as much pressure to exit Palestine, as the war would prove far less costly) would likely mean Britain leaves Palestine later. Syria achieves independence around the same time as OTL, as a main source of the delay (a treaty was already negotiated OTL in 1936) was fear that an independent Syria would align with Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany has been defeated, and so Syria becomes independent. A Syrian-Jordanian War in 1947 or 1948 would mean the Arab State which most aggressively insisted on war (Syria) is run by the most conciliatory Arab Leader (Abdullah). It means a few more years of Jewish migration - and from a larger pool - and of arms being brought in. All of this suggests that compromise would win out over war if partition gets put on the table I think.
 
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German supply lines were overstretched and shoestring. Germany also had debt well in excess of its GDP and ammunition stocks were depleting.

And yet, the Germans went on to fund five more years of warfare and massively increase their ammunition production going forward. 1940 was actually the height of their ammo output until 1942-1943; they actually dramatically lowered output after France fell, here they won't. As for existing stocks, they were still ample anyway.

The Germans had spent the Interwar preparing for this conflict, they never wagered it all on one campaign.

Without the insanely improbable fluke that was the quick folding of France OTL, Germany will have millions of men cut off from logistical support and the remainder will be pushed back into Germany proper. I would expect a coup attempt should the Western Allies make it into the Rhineland.

The Fall of France was not a fluke, but over-determined. On another forum, someone contextualized it in a way that I think best exemplifies this; consider it as a replay of World War I EXCEPT:
  • There's no Eastern Front, so the WWI Ostheer is available for duty in the West continuously
  • The core of the Austro-Hungarian military power (in the form of Austria and Czechia) is also focused in the West
  • The BEF is ~20% of its size
In that regard, the German success in 1940, while still amazing, doesn't seem as miraculous. Sickle Cut definitely engendered success far beyond expectations, but given the arrangement of the economics and forces at play, even if they failed to achieve decisive success in 1940 it was likely they would in 1941. Like nuclear war, the only winning move for the Anglo-French was not to play for several more years.

Even if Lend-Lease doesn't happen because of domestic American politics, there will still be destroyers-for-bases and lend-lease. The Daladier Proposal of colonies for right to purchase on credit also could be an option. I saw (unsourced) on the other website that the British considered the idea of colonies-for-credit too (the discussed colonies being Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, and Belize, with the US wanting to cede Belize to Mexico and Guatemala as part of the Good Neighbor policy).

If there is no Lend Lease, the Allies fold for lack of ability to finance the conflict alone. French Gold reserves were valued at about $2 or 3 Billion in 1940; UK orders with the United States alone, not including Pre-Fall of France orders, amounted to $10 Billion by December of 1940. British industry as a whole is completely incapable, at this time, of meeting its needs and if we assume they cut out or seriously reduce American purchases, then you've crippled the British Military entirely. To quote Havlat:

British industry was incapable of producing the range and quantity of armaments required to win the war. Even those items that could be manufactured domestically were heavily dependent on imports of raw materials and products such as steel. Most of these imports came from the United States and had to be paid for either in gold or dollars… . The day of reckoning was rapidly approaching. From a total of £775 million at the beginning of 1940, Britain’s gold and dollar reserves … had fallen [by August 1940] by over a third to £490 million… . They would last another three to four months at most. By the end of 1940, therefore, Britain would be unable to carry on the war by its own efforts.31

By September 1940, British orders in the United States amounted to 10 billion dollars, of which only a fraction could be paid for.32 The country was nearing financial collapse: ‘ … by the beginning of 1941 it had less than £3 million left in its gold and dollar reserves. This was as near to bankruptcy as it was possible to go without actual default’. 33 Realizing that without American aid Britain would have to surrender or negotiate with Germany, Roosevelt devised the so-called Lend-Lease law, which took effect on 11 March 1941. This law gave the President the authority to supply any country that was considered vital for the defense of the United States.34 For the duration of the war, Britain would receive supplies free of charge, which would be handed back or repaid once the war had ended.​

Thus, the likely end result is the Germans successfully defeating the Anglo-French after a longer conflict even without a six weeks campaign in 1940 doing it.
 
The idea that Germany could win a war of attrition in 1940 is absurd to the point of lunacy.

As early as 1936, according to Paul Kennedy, Germany had already surpassed the combined economic capacity of the Anglo-French. By 1940, having added Austria, Czechia and much of Poland, Germany already had a machine tool stock that was equal to and more modern than even the United States:

For the period after 1935, until the early 1940s, our data suggest a remarkable degree of convergence. The American stock stagnated. In some areas, there was disinvestment. And the average age of machinery rose dramatically. By contrast, Germany entered a period of rapid catch-up, which appears to have continued into the early years of the war. By 1940, German metal-working came close to matching its American counterpart in terms of the number of workers employed and the quantity and types of machines installed. German machines were, on average, far younger. This process of catching-up, however, was dramatically reversed during World War II.​

Resource constraints have also been largely rejected nowadays too, as I've noted elsewhere:

This article refutes a fundamental assumption behind the Western powers’ ‘long-war strategy’ in 1939, and casts doubt on the conventional wisdom regarding the alleged unpreparedness of Nazi Germany for a longer war. It does so by re-examining Germany’s war-preparedness through the lens of those raw materials that were of vital importance for the production of all armaments: non-ferrous metals. Contemporaries believed that these metals were the Achilles heel of the Nazi war economy because Germany had to cover its consumption predominantly with imports from overseas, which meant that it was extremely vulnerable to a sea blockade. But this article challenges these assumptions and shows that the Nazi war-planners were prepared for a longer war because of the lessons learned from the Great War, which they had carefully and covertly studied. The statistics compiled in this article demonstrate that it was the preparations based on these lessons rather than contingencies and non-predictable events, such as the access to occupied Europe due to unexpected victories, that were primarily responsible for the fact that Germany did not run out of metals during the Second World War. Germany lost the war not because of a lack of economic preparation, at least not in the field of metals, but because of the strategic decision to start a war which was bound to draw in an ever more superior coalition of enemies the longer it lasted.​
 
You need more than one or two articles (one from last April) to back up this being largely rejected by historians.

If you're referring to the greater industrial capacity of Germany vis-a-vis the Anglo-French, I've cited four including an article by Tooze from 2013 that actually tacitly conceded to some of the criticism put forth about WoD:
However, there are also blanks in Tooze's study, which in a sense could not be avoided because the relevant research on this topic only got underway at the time his manuscript was written. Among these blank spots on the Nazi economy is, firstly, the historical analysis of its Europe-wide spread. In this respect, the author could only refer to individual country studies, especially on Franco German and German-Norwegian economic relations and the predatory economic side of the German invasion of the Soviet Union. However, comprehensive studies have only appeared in recent years. They make it clear that the archipelago of Nazi economics did indeed spread throughout Europe from 1940/41 onward, thereby countries that had remained formally neutral - in particular Switzerland and Sweden. In the territories occupied by Germany, a total of about 36 million people were forced to work for their war and armament efforts, almost three times more than the total of 13.5 million forced and slave laborers within the territory of the Reich. If Tooze were writing his study today, he could not get past these newly reconstructed facts and would have to change his assessment of the fundamental and, from the outset, hopeless inferiority of the Nazi economy to the potential of the Allies. In the light of these facts, on the other hand, Richard Overy's far more cautious assessment of the defeat of the fascist axis as far less "lawful" appears in a new light.2​
The Tooze School of Thought is one of three that have emerged since WWII to explain the German defeat. The first, the USSBS view defined in their survey of Germany industry in the immediate aftermath, largely birthed the Blitzkrieg Hypothesis; Germany had ample means of fighting the war to outright victory ("Germany should have won this war" is directly what one of those involved said), they just waited too late to mobilize under Speer starting in about 1943. The Second was Richard Overy's "Inefficiency" Hypothesis, which again concedes Germany had the material means of winning, but their system was inefficient and thus this crippled their capabilities. Overy has directly stated this was contingent, and could've been otherwise; most of his recent work has been an effort to lay out exactly this argument.

Lastly, we have the Tooze School which rejects Overy's inefficiency, but also rejects the Blitzkrieg/USSBS take. WoD lays out the case the Germans didn't have the material means to win, but did efficiently utilize those resources they did have as effectively as possible; as an aside, you can usually tell who has or hasn't read the book on this topic because of this. Given we now have Tooze's Post WoD work showing the German machine tool stock was about equal to that of the United States in 1940, and was newer, while also having an industrial labor pool equal to greater than that of the United States, what does that say in terms of their capacity to wage war on the Anglo-French?

As for the Scherner article, I'd encourage anybody who doubts it to go check the acknowledgement section of Tooze's Wages of Destruction to see what Tooze says of the former. I'm always up for debates, to have my views challenged, but at a certain point it becomes clear the burden of proof has been met and the onus shifts onto those who disagree to make their case.
 
The idea that Germany could win a war of attrition in 1940 is absurd to the point of lunacy.
But might the idea that Germany loses a war of attitition, because of attrition, within only 3, 6, or 12 months starting in 1940, in a one-front war, in strategic circumstances similar to their best months in WWI (Dec 1917- Mar 1918), but without all the prior casualities and years of exhaustion that WWI had, be a bit wishfully optimistic for the Entente side?

I mean, gotta give attrition time to attrite.

I wasn't able to get at the articles you were citing though @HistoryLearner . I couldn't get at the JSTOR review of Tooze. What is Schener's full name?

And yet, the Germans went on to fund five more years of warfare and massively increase their ammunition production going forward.

I don't they do have an explanation for logical explanation for this. Unless they assume the entire difference was conquest-loot enabled. What else could have accounted for it?
 
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