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TL191 WI: Featherston’s peace

Meadow

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I played the Southern Victory mod for HOI4 and in it, if the CSA wins the Second World War it divides the US into military occupation zones. Fairly uninspired but it isn’t clear - from memory - what else they have to play with based on the source material.

Featherston keeps saying the CSA will “lick the Damnyankees” so can we assume a Versailles-esque peace? Would he allow the USA to even carrying o existing?

Unlike his OTL analogue, he didn’t want Lebensraum, though maybe some states would see territory transfers into the CSA and their populations East Prussia’d as a means of making a buffer.

I can’t recall if HT goes into much more detail in the books. But with what we know, and using either realism or what the fevered mind of Sarge would want, what might Jake Featherston’s post-war North America look like? Assume for the sake of argument that the CSA wins the Battle of Pittsburgh and the USA just never rallies to recover.
 
I haven't read Southern Victory but I assume a Confederate irredentist would want West Virginia, Missouri, the Arizona and New Mexico territories that the Confederacy claimed in the Civil War, and possibly even Maryland and Delaware itself (though I suppose that it would take a very crushing victory for the US to give up its capital).
 
-Sequoyah
-Missouri
-Maryland
-West Virginia
-that bit of Sonora
-um, Delaware
-Dixie flags for some, tiny chunks of Maine for others

Canada regaining independence is a gimme, as is the consistently shoehorned-in Deseret stuff, and at that point Jake has to hope for Hartford 2: Electric Boogaloo. Featherston "winning" is really where the analogy starts to break down, since the CSA is just not as developed and not as densely populated as the USA and has also brilliantly chosen to murder around a third of their own country. Even operating by fairly generous in-universe logic, the Confederates never seem to have been up for more than "quick, war-winning push" as far as military capabilities go.

Can see Smith or La Follette giving in, promptly getting couped, and a few years of chaos giving the Confederates a free hand, but realistically we're looking at something less like keeping down Russia and more like keeping down China.
 
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I played the Southern Victory mod for HOI4 and in it, if the CSA wins the Second World War it divides the US into military occupation zones. Fairly uninspired but it isn’t clear - from memory - what else they have to play with based on the source material.

Featherston keeps saying the CSA will “lick the Damnyankees” so can we assume a Versailles-esque peace? Would he allow the USA to even carrying o existing?

Unlike his OTL analogue, he didn’t want Lebensraum, though maybe some states would see territory transfers into the CSA and their populations East Prussia’d as a means of making a buffer.

I can’t recall if HT goes into much more detail in the books. But with what we know, and using either realism or what the fevered mind of Sarge would want, what might Jake Featherston’s post-war North America look like? Assume for the sake of argument that the CSA wins the Battle of Pittsburgh and the USA just never rallies to recover.

From what I recall when reading the first Settling Accounts book, right about the time the first Ohio offensive ends, Featherston makes a speech offering peace in exchange for the last bits of CSA territory taken after GW1 (Sequoyah, NW Sonora, NE Arkansas, and Northern Virginia), full repayment of all reparations the USA demanded at the end of that war ($2 billion, I think, in gold, oil or steel), a completely disarmed border zone extending up to 100 miles (excepting D.C., out of "mutual respect" for Washington), and the CSA sending regular inspection tours to ensure disarmament (no USA inspections allowed). After Smith says no John Paul Jones-style, Featherston bets everything on the Pittsburgh offensive (Operation Coalscuttle), and the rest is (alternate) history, according to the following books. :D

If we consider the potential/wildest effects of a successful Coalscuttle (the capture of Pittsburgh, maybe followed by further assaults into eastern PA, threatening and perhaps even getting close to/taking Philly as in the WofS, leading to Smith being killed or ousted and LaFollette suing for peace, or their replacements doing so if they both refuse/are killed), then I think Featherston might make the same first offer, with several major addendums possible:

-Even more reparations (maybe to the point of all the territory taken in Ohio and PA being made an economic satellite, a la the Occupation of the Ruhr)
-Surrender of high-ranking military and civilian figures (predominantly Socialists in the latter category, given CSA attitudes) for trial on (hypocritical) charges of war crimes for "provoking" the CSA to launch the conflict.
-Perhaps cession of southern IL, IN, and OH along the Ohio River, as a "buffer against future aggression", with a DMZ stretching through the rest, and extended beyond 100 miles everywhere else along the US-CS border.
-Recognition of CSA conquest of (or at least strong influence over) Haiti and the Bahamas, effectively realizing the "Golden Circle" ambition (and extending the Southern Holocaust, something probably long sought by the CSA in the case of Haiti)
-Maybe recognition of the "Republic of Deseret", though unless Featherston demands Arizona, too, I don't see this happening/being sustainable, since the Mormon state would still be surrounded by the U.S. otherwise. Of course, he could just demand it as a means of further humiliating the U.S. and trying to keep further trouble boiling in its interior.
-Maybe Canadian independence, but I have doubts here, too; the appeal of the pre-GW1 encirclement aside, having large numbers of U.S. troops tied down up north would have been crucial in a Confederate GW2 victory, so Featherston might not demand this so as to keep them from Confederate borders (although gunrunning to Canadian rebels obviously wouldn't stop).
-Massive reductions in U.S. forces generally, with frequent inspections to ensure compliance.

Bottom line: I seriously doubt Featherston would push a breakup/occupation of the U.S. like you describe in the mod; even he concedes (IIRC) that the CSA doesn't have the manpower to do so, hence the blitzkrieg in Blackbeard and Coalscuttle. I think he just wanted the CSA (himself, in other words) "on top" in North America, which would basically mean supplanting the U.S. as the premier continental power and keeping it in a permanent weakened state, with or without territorial concessions or anything like the terms I listed. With that achieved, he'd also pursue the Southern Holocaust just as if not more aggressively, perhaps even trying to force it on blacks in the U.S. (which might be made easier given a defeated U.S.'s need for scapegoats, alongside those it made out of the Socialists for losing the war) and on other black populations in the Western Hemisphere.

Where can this mod be found? Can it be played through other factions?
 
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Where can this mod be found? Can it be played through other factions?

It's on the Steam Workshop, should be the top result if you search "Southern Victory." It has a straightforward Featherston path as per the books, but there's also an opportunity for him to be assassinated at the Olympics, at which point there's a power struggle between (IIRC) Ferdinand Koenig, Willy Knight, and the military establishment, possibly even a restoration of democracy.

So far it's just the CSA, the US, and Mexico that have content. Progress reports have come out for the UK and France though, and there's been a good amount of thought put into the alternate evolution of what we'd recognise as fascism.
 
As someone who used to write a TL-191 fanfic TL (a considerable amount of the content which I wrote I now regret) I think there has to be some accounting for the European and Pacific theatres. While largely a secondary player compared to the C.S., Britain still could spare the resources to engage the US Navy in decisive battles in the Atlantic while occupying Ireland and opening a second front in northwest Germany - it took the German High Seas Fleet sortieing in 1943 for the USN to fully turn the tide.

Obviously this raises the question of to what end Britain is at liberty to dictate terms (restoration of British rule in Ireland and Bermuda is a given) but I think while Featherston might not care about most of their objectives, like ending the U.S. occupation of Canada, he would at least find agreement on naval restrictions.

The Canada issue overall is a harder one, since Quebec isn't officially at war and its most significant contribution is troops to free Union manpower for the main theatre of war. Would Richmond have a vested interest in dissolving the Republic? Maybe there'd be some joint Anglo-Confederate operation emulating the Seven Years' War, but I don't see it happening until after peace is made with the United States, though if Britain pushes things they could regain a continental foothold in Newfoundland and/or the Maritimes.
 
It's on the Steam Workshop, should be the top result if you search "Southern Victory." It has a straightforward Featherston path as per the books, but there's also an opportunity for him to be assassinated at the Olympics, at which point there's a power struggle between (IIRC) Ferdinand Koenig, Willy Knight, and the military establishment, possibly even a restoration of democracy.

So far it's just the CSA, the US, and Mexico that have content. Progress reports have come out for the UK and France though, and there's been a good amount of thought put into the alternate evolution of what we'd recognise as fascism.

I found two SV mods, one by Hexcron (the one you and Meadow describe, it seems) and one by Storm Catpounce, which seems to have more in the way of playable factions. Which would you recommend?
 
Featherston mentioned in the books that he believed it would take a series of short, sharp wars to knock the United States down to the weakened state he believed would lead to the CSA being the premier power in North America. My opinion will line up with a lot of the above posters, but here goes for what I think his ultimate goals might have been:

*Chunks of northern Virginia and northern Sonora returned
*Maryland
*Delaware
*Possibly southeastern Pennsylvania, including Philadelphia (it was stated that the CSA felt it was theirs by right, as it had been occupied by Lee during the War of Secession)
*West Virginia
*Missouri
*Sequoyah
*New Mexico (OTL's New Mexico & Arizona)
*Southern Nevada & California (Continuing the northern border of New Mexico west through the southern tip of Nevada & California)
*Independent Deseret
*Deseret gets the rest of Nevada & California (The Latter-Day Saints tried to claim a large swath of the Southwest pre-Civil War)
*Bahamas (the CSA overran them early in the war)
*Haiti (CSA also occupied them & had a death camp operating south of Port-au-Prince)
*Independent Canada
*Quebec gets northern Maine as it was between Second Mexican War & Great War (I could see Featherston giving it to Quebec to try & get them in the CSA's sphere, while somewhat weakening Canada to keep the CSA from having another major continental rival. Plus a large French & French-Canadian population)
*Canada gets British favored line pre-Treaty of 1818 (Northwestern Minnesota, OTL's North Dakota, & continuing North Dakota's southern border through Montana & Idaho)
*Canada gets Washington State (continuing the line westward from North Dakota, & including the British claims of the Oregon border dispute in western Washington State)
*Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) & Bermuda return to Britain

This would leave the USA far smaller and more manageable for the CSA to lord over, with the assistance of allied Deseret, Canada, & hopefully Quebec. This post-CSA Victory USA would have just Oregon as their Pacific coast, and very little territory between the new northern CSA border & new southern Canadian border for them to escape being overrun if they kick up a fuss in the future. I foresee the new US capital being moved to either New York City or Chicago, with the latter more likely as its more distant from both the CSA and Canada.
 
Didn't see this thread till now, but one thing I found odd was that Featherstone (I think) meets with a Mormon terrorist leader and states that no matter what the outcome of the war, he doubts the CSA and Deseret will share a border. The way that sequence was written made it seem to me at the time like Featherstone assumed the USA would continue to exist regardless, which seemed a bit off for a Hitler/WW2 analogue. I don't think they ever talk about trying to annex parts of the USA (beyond those remaining ones lost from the CSA).
 
Didn't see this thread till now, but one thing I found odd was that Featherstone (I think) meets with a Mormon terrorist leader and states that no matter what the outcome of the war, he doubts the CSA and Deseret will share a border. The way that sequence was written made it seem to me at the time like Featherstone assumed the USA would continue to exist regardless, which seemed a bit off for a Hitler/WW2 analogue. I don't think they ever talk about trying to annex parts of the USA (beyond those remaining ones lost from the CSA).

I think that is fundamental to the ways in which Featherston and Hitler are different and occupy different power contexts. Hitler has all of his greatest enemies and threats stacked up within the Soviet Union: military, ideological, and racial. Of course Poland needs to go and the French need to put back in their box and made to pay for it and the Jews are in for a bad time wherever they're found, but once things kick off over there then the whole project rides on whether or not he can smash everything between him and the Ural Mountains.

Featherston has that kind of revenge-hate against the United States, where he wants to defeat and humiliate them and aggrandize the Confederacy at their expense, but his ideological and racial animus are much more directed inward, at people by-and-large already within his own country. Even if he steps on a defeated USA and compels them to give up more victims for Camp Determination, that's still not Generalplan Ost. He's never going to evolve the idea of killing everyone between the Ohio River and Canada, it's just not in his worldview.
 
I think that is fundamental to the ways in which Featherston and Hitler are different and occupy different power contexts. Hitler has all of his greatest enemies and threats stacked up within the Soviet Union: military, ideological, and racial. Of course Poland needs to go and the French need to put back in their box and made to pay for it and the Jews are in for a bad time wherever they're found, but once things kick off over there then the whole project rides on whether or not he can smash everything between him and the Ural Mountains.

Featherston has that kind of revenge-hate against the United States, where he wants to defeat and humiliate them and aggrandize the Confederacy at their expense, but his ideological and racial animus are much more directed inward, at people by-and-large already within his own country. Even if he steps on a defeated USA and compels them to give up more victims for Camp Determination, that's still not Generalplan Ost. He's never going to evolve the idea of killing everyone between the Ohio River and Canada, it's just not in his worldview.
True. That's the odd part about TL-191 at that point, you have some genuinely thoughtful ideas (e.g. Britain and the CSA are allies again but it's the CSA that invades the Bahamas to take them back from the US, uh-oh, what's going to happen there; everyone has different names for plutonium; the CSA actually gets the bomb first and it doesn't matter) mixed with a general malaise of "can't be bothered to come up with a new name for the latest barrel", the USA talking about re-annexing Tennessee after 70 years with less fanfare than its readmission got in OTL after five, and generally it feeling too much like generic WW2 fanfiction and less AH-y than it was in WW1.
 
Didn't see this thread till now, but one thing I found odd was that Featherstone (I think) meets with a Mormon terrorist leader and states that no matter what the outcome of the war, he doubts the CSA and Deseret will share a border. The way that sequence was written made it seem to me at the time like Featherstone assumed the USA would continue to exist regardless, which seemed a bit off for a Hitler/WW2 analogue. I don't think they ever talk about trying to annex parts of the USA (beyond those remaining ones lost from the CSA).
I wouldn't put too much into faith into something Featherston said aloud to someone, as he really is a Hitler analogue. Besides, this was going to be just the first of what he thought was going to be a series of wars against the USA to cut them down to size - he actually thought that the Socialists of the USA were going to continue to be duped after he kept breaking his word, and apparently had little more faith in the Democrats. The last thing he'd been looking for was a drawn out grapple of a conflict after CSA forces reached northern Ohio and cut the USA in two.

I think even Featherston realized that the USA was too large for the CSA to conquer outright. I think he'd want everything the South could have ever wanted from the USA, then shrink them further to the aggrandizement of other continental allies, then leave the shrunken USA to be lorded over as the USA had lorded it over the CSA after the Great War, at least as long as he lived or until he felt they'd suffered enough. Deseret and the Canadians would probably be enthusiastic allies in keeping the USA down, while Quebec would have to reluctantly follow along while trying to solidify ties with Action Francaise France - assuming the European theatre had gone as well as it has in North America for the Entente - to try and have some sort of counterbalance to Confederate influence.
 
Featherston mentioned in the books that he believed it would take a series of short, sharp wars to knock the United States down to the weakened state he believed would lead to the CSA being the premier power in North America. My opinion will line up with a lot of the above posters, but here goes for what I think his ultimate goals might have been:

*Chunks of northern Virginia and northern Sonora returned
*Maryland
*Delaware
*Possibly southeastern Pennsylvania, including Philadelphia (it was stated that the CSA felt it was theirs by right, as it had been occupied by Lee during the War of Secession)
*West Virginia
*Missouri
*Sequoyah
*New Mexico (OTL's New Mexico & Arizona)
*Southern Nevada & California (Continuing the northern border of New Mexico west through the southern tip of Nevada & California)
*Independent Deseret
*Deseret gets the rest of Nevada & California (The Latter-Day Saints tried to claim a large swath of the Southwest pre-Civil War)
*Bahamas (the CSA overran them early in the war)
*Haiti (CSA also occupied them & had a death camp operating south of Port-au-Prince)
*Independent Canada
*Quebec gets northern Maine as it was between Second Mexican War & Great War (I could see Featherston giving it to Quebec to try & get them in the CSA's sphere, while somewhat weakening Canada to keep the CSA from having another major continental rival. Plus a large French & French-Canadian population)
*Canada gets British favored line pre-Treaty of 1818 (Northwestern Minnesota, OTL's North Dakota, & continuing North Dakota's southern border through Montana & Idaho)
*Canada gets Washington State (continuing the line westward from North Dakota, & including the British claims of the Oregon border dispute in western Washington State)
*Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) & Bermuda return to Britain

This would leave the USA far smaller and more manageable for the CSA to lord over, with the assistance of allied Deseret, Canada, & hopefully Quebec. This post-CSA Victory USA would have just Oregon as their Pacific coast, and very little territory between the new northern CSA border & new southern Canadian border for them to escape being overrun if they kick up a fuss in the future. I foresee the new US capital being moved to either New York City or Chicago, with the latter more likely as its more distant from both the CSA and Canada.
Here's a rough map of the outlines I've made of a Freedom Party CSA Victory in the Second Great War. A few state/province adjustments have also been made:

*Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta & British Columbia's boundaries have been extended southward into the territory taken from northwest Minnesota, northern Dakota, Montana, Idaho & Washington State
*Wyoming & Idaho have taken over the remainder of the extremely shrunk Montana
*Virginia has reabsorbed West Virginia
*Maryland has absorbed southeast Pennsylvania
*Quebec has absorbed northern Maine
*The new Confederate state of South California has absorbed the small section of Nevada the CSA also took
*Deseret is, of course, independent & has absorbed the rest of Nevada & California
 

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