- Location
- A home of love and laughter.
-
Hi Guest!
The costs of running this forum are covered by Sea Lion Press. If you'd like to help support the company and the forum, visit patreon.com/sealionpress
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
The Road to a New Alternate History. Part 2.
- Thread starter David Flin
- Start date
We are weirdly atomised compared to other subgenres, aren't we? You put it out there like that, it's really stark. We're not that much more of a niche than, say, bigfoot horror books. And I assume fixing it would be hard when the scene us do atomised because any formal centre or association would have to show it's multiple equals coming together and not just a few chums trying to dominate - I know this "who are you and why should we listen" factor has messed up attempts at a pseudo-governing body for British indue wrestling, and that was in context of needing something to respond to sex pests.
(Have we tried Extreme Horror AH as a sales boost? "Liz Truss feels the country needs cuts.... deep cuts...")
(Have we tried Extreme Horror AH as a sales boost? "Liz Truss feels the country needs cuts.... deep cuts...")
(Have we tried Extreme Horror AH as a sales boost? "Liz Truss feels the country needs cuts.... deep cuts...")
Skinny87marink
Time Enough
"Enthusiastic Cis Male Partner"
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I do like an Alternate History Writers association as a general concept, in a way I think this forum is a fairly decent stab in the dark at that concept, particularly given it’s survived for a few years now, and is gaining new authors from outside the Old Country Clique.
The thing with Alternate History as 'genre' is it's pretty loose even down to its very definitions, and even this loose definition could be seen as window dressing for another genre than a true genre in and of itself.
If you take Alternate history as anything that deviates from the world as we know it, anything and everything could be considered alternate history from The 1993 Super Mario Brothers Movie, Wild Wild West, the Ending to Kessen III, and a whole slew of other things.
Even if we do get a bunch of people to try and centralize the 'genre' it raises a question, what is AH supposed to be as a genre? Because if you look at a whole bunch of vignettes here there's a lot you can do with Alternate History, which leads me to a second question. Will trying to centralize the genre be forcing something free to be shoved in a box, and if so, what exactly is at risk of being lost?
Edit: Forgot the Example of Bright
If you take Alternate history as anything that deviates from the world as we know it, anything and everything could be considered alternate history from The 1993 Super Mario Brothers Movie, Wild Wild West, the Ending to Kessen III, and a whole slew of other things.
Even if we do get a bunch of people to try and centralize the 'genre' it raises a question, what is AH supposed to be as a genre? Because if you look at a whole bunch of vignettes here there's a lot you can do with Alternate History, which leads me to a second question. Will trying to centralize the genre be forcing something free to be shoved in a box, and if so, what exactly is at risk of being lost?
Edit: Forgot the Example of Bright
Last edited:
ChrisNuttall
Well-known member
I'll post a proper comment later, but this made me giggle like a loon ...
(“Terrifying in both its historical and geographical ignorance” – The Morningside Review of Books).
ChrisNuttall
Well-known member
I think the idea of an AH writers association is a good one, at least on paper, but it would be difficult to make one work in the long-term. In my experience, a great many similar ideas have run into problems they simply couldn’t overcome. For example:
-Too small; nowhere near enough members, without the ability or clout to offer much to its members.
-Too political; they get involved with internal and external politics, and so lose all relevance to the up and coming authors.
-Too ‘Mean Girl;’ they have a clique of personalities who basically freeze out people they don’t like, or harass members for imaginary infractions, or somehow manage to wield clout within the group that is FAR in excess of the value they bring to it.
These issues tend to have negative effects. A too-small group is unable to offer anything to prospective members, which limits its ability to attract new blood. A political group tends to lose track of the responsibility to represent all authors, not just a particular publisher’s stable or authors with different politics; mean girls either drive away contributors if they’re in charge or, at the very least, make it hard to attract new blood through throwing their weight around. They claim to be working for the good of the group, but their actions suggest otherwise.
It will be difficult to overcome these problems. A leadership that is not directly responsible to the voters is one that will lose track of what’s actually important, thus any workable group must constantly rotate leadership and put major decisions to the vote. The group should consider itself to be politically neutral, keeping politics out of its activities and taking no position on anything that doesn’t affect the group. Finally, there should be zero tolerance for mean girl behaviour, and anyone who shows it should be given one warning, then shown the door.
Chris
-Too small; nowhere near enough members, without the ability or clout to offer much to its members.
-Too political; they get involved with internal and external politics, and so lose all relevance to the up and coming authors.
-Too ‘Mean Girl;’ they have a clique of personalities who basically freeze out people they don’t like, or harass members for imaginary infractions, or somehow manage to wield clout within the group that is FAR in excess of the value they bring to it.
These issues tend to have negative effects. A too-small group is unable to offer anything to prospective members, which limits its ability to attract new blood. A political group tends to lose track of the responsibility to represent all authors, not just a particular publisher’s stable or authors with different politics; mean girls either drive away contributors if they’re in charge or, at the very least, make it hard to attract new blood through throwing their weight around. They claim to be working for the good of the group, but their actions suggest otherwise.
It will be difficult to overcome these problems. A leadership that is not directly responsible to the voters is one that will lose track of what’s actually important, thus any workable group must constantly rotate leadership and put major decisions to the vote. The group should consider itself to be politically neutral, keeping politics out of its activities and taking no position on anything that doesn’t affect the group. Finally, there should be zero tolerance for mean girl behaviour, and anyone who shows it should be given one warning, then shown the door.
Chris
- Location
- UK
I've been thinking about this from the perspective of my other interest as an artist, more specifically a printmaker.
Printmaking as an artistic genre is a minority activity and one prone to misunderstanding and dismissive comments. There is however an association, the Royal Society of Painter-Printmakers, no less. That was founded in 1880 in reaction to the Royal Academy of Arts' reluctance to exhibit etchings and engravings. Entry is not open but competitive. There are in fact probably dozens, or even hundreds, of art's groups. Some of those are based on genre, but others because of falling out over political and 'mean girl' type issues.
In St Ives between the wars, there were two artist groups, because the original was very anti-abstract. The New English Art Club was founded by a group of artists dissatisfied with the entrenched attitudes of the Royal Academy. In Bath, the long-standing Bath Society of Artists is facing competition from another recently launched group, The New Bath Art Club. There used to be two in my little town if less than 20,000 people! My point is that artists seem to be an awkward group to corral into neat groupings, and I'm not sure that writers are likely to be any easier
Artists in general have serious hurdles to get their work known. As in the mainstream world of writing, there are gatekeepers - gallery owners and critics for artists, agents and reviewers for writers. Writers have an advantage here. Making and producing the work is zero or low cost and requires little space., when compared to artists. The internet has made distribution both easier and harder for both groups. It is much easier now to get work online oneself, but the increase in the number of people doing this makes it hard to be found.
In both cases, there is an almost total lack of recognition that if you make something and try to sell it, you are in business., however small the scale of activity.
All this is by way of saying that the issues we have been talking about have parallel examples in many other areas of the arts, from which we might learn. In the end, though, it begs the question of what any putative AH Writers Group would be for. Is the aim to promote the genre to a wider audience (which means defining it!), or is it to support writers of AH in some way? If the second, what sort of support?
I'm not 100% sure, but my feeling is that there is perhaps need for some version of the first. There are any number of writers support groups, local, national and international, which might provide the second function. For any writer wanting to move past niche publishing, then some information on agents which would consider AH as a genre would be useful.
Many years ago I read a book called 'Organising around enthusiasms' which examined how various groups, from football clubs, to war gamers to model railways organised their activity. It's a long time ago now, (mid 90s) but if I recall correctly the key message was that in most cases, the drivers for the society were usually a few key individuals for whom the operation of the group had effectively become their hobby, taking over the nominal activity it was there for. That can't be planned for or depended upon if we want to promote the genre in any formal sense.
I wonder if we could start with some sort of 'open source' approach, starting with producing a list of activities which individuals (and publishers like SLP) might usefully do to spread the word. Perhaps we should all sign up to LinkedIn for example and take part there.
Sorry for the rambling, but I don't think I'm alone in having difficulty in getting to grips with this.
Printmaking as an artistic genre is a minority activity and one prone to misunderstanding and dismissive comments. There is however an association, the Royal Society of Painter-Printmakers, no less. That was founded in 1880 in reaction to the Royal Academy of Arts' reluctance to exhibit etchings and engravings. Entry is not open but competitive. There are in fact probably dozens, or even hundreds, of art's groups. Some of those are based on genre, but others because of falling out over political and 'mean girl' type issues.
In St Ives between the wars, there were two artist groups, because the original was very anti-abstract. The New English Art Club was founded by a group of artists dissatisfied with the entrenched attitudes of the Royal Academy. In Bath, the long-standing Bath Society of Artists is facing competition from another recently launched group, The New Bath Art Club. There used to be two in my little town if less than 20,000 people! My point is that artists seem to be an awkward group to corral into neat groupings, and I'm not sure that writers are likely to be any easier
Artists in general have serious hurdles to get their work known. As in the mainstream world of writing, there are gatekeepers - gallery owners and critics for artists, agents and reviewers for writers. Writers have an advantage here. Making and producing the work is zero or low cost and requires little space., when compared to artists. The internet has made distribution both easier and harder for both groups. It is much easier now to get work online oneself, but the increase in the number of people doing this makes it hard to be found.
In both cases, there is an almost total lack of recognition that if you make something and try to sell it, you are in business., however small the scale of activity.
All this is by way of saying that the issues we have been talking about have parallel examples in many other areas of the arts, from which we might learn. In the end, though, it begs the question of what any putative AH Writers Group would be for. Is the aim to promote the genre to a wider audience (which means defining it!), or is it to support writers of AH in some way? If the second, what sort of support?
I'm not 100% sure, but my feeling is that there is perhaps need for some version of the first. There are any number of writers support groups, local, national and international, which might provide the second function. For any writer wanting to move past niche publishing, then some information on agents which would consider AH as a genre would be useful.
Many years ago I read a book called 'Organising around enthusiasms' which examined how various groups, from football clubs, to war gamers to model railways organised their activity. It's a long time ago now, (mid 90s) but if I recall correctly the key message was that in most cases, the drivers for the society were usually a few key individuals for whom the operation of the group had effectively become their hobby, taking over the nominal activity it was there for. That can't be planned for or depended upon if we want to promote the genre in any formal sense.
I wonder if we could start with some sort of 'open source' approach, starting with producing a list of activities which individuals (and publishers like SLP) might usefully do to spread the word. Perhaps we should all sign up to LinkedIn for example and take part there.
Sorry for the rambling, but I don't think I'm alone in having difficulty in getting to grips with this.
I think the idea of an AH writers association is a good one, at least on paper, but it would be difficult to make one work in the long-term. In my experience, a great many similar ideas have run into problems they simply couldn’t overcome. For example:
-Too small; nowhere near enough members, without the ability or clout to offer much to its members.
-Too political; they get involved with internal and external politics, and so lose all relevance to the up and coming authors.
-Too ‘Mean Girl;’ they have a clique of personalities who basically freeze out people they don’t like, or harass members for imaginary infractions, or somehow manage to wield clout within the group that is FAR in excess of the value they bring to it.
These issues tend to have negative effects. A too-small group is unable to offer anything to prospective members, which limits its ability to attract new blood. A political group tends to lose track of the responsibility to represent all authors, not just a particular publisher’s stable or authors with different politics; mean girls either drive away contributors if they’re in charge or, at the very least, make it hard to attract new blood through throwing their weight around. They claim to be working for the good of the group, but their actions suggest otherwise.
It will be difficult to overcome these problems. A leadership that is not directly responsible to the voters is one that will lose track of what’s actually important, thus any workable group must constantly rotate leadership and put major decisions to the vote. The group should consider itself to be politically neutral, keeping politics out of its activities and taking no position on anything that doesn’t affect the group. Finally, there should be zero tolerance for mean girl behaviour, and anyone who shows it should be given one warning, then shown the door.
Chris
I'll come to others comments a bit later when I have more time, but I would take a moment to highlight - as seen in the article itself - almost every other genre has managed to achieve this apparently impossible goal as you've described. The Science Fiction Writers of America (SFWA) for example has had its share of internal problems over the years, but also has a huge membership and has been instrumental in dealing with relacitrant publishers and other legal issues over the decades.
Obviously that's the Gold Star treatment for such an organisation, but if the Alternate History genre is apparently unable to achieve this then to me that points to only two potential answers:
- It's either too atomised to allow for any form of centralised support organisation to form itself;
- or it isn't actually a genre and therefore lacks the internal coherence to ever become anything more self-defined that would allow a centralised support organisation to form
I mean, not to belabor the point but several of these organisations were quite literally founded by A Bloke:
According to the Crime Writer's Association page:
And for the SWFA:
And indeed if we focus again on the CWA then it was actually founded with the explicit intention to help authors network:
According to the Crime Writer's Association page:
The Crime Writers’ Association was founded in 1953 by the prolific author John Creasey who wrote over 400 books under various pseudonyms, but is perhaps best known to readers of crime fiction for the Gideon series. Creasey took up the challenge to found a members association of crime writers when it was suggested to him by fellow crime writer, Nigel Morland, who had just become the first British member of the Mystery Writers of America (formed in 1948). As there was no UK equivalent, other than the prestigious and selective Detection Club (formed in 1930), Morland and Creasey thought there was scope for a broader, more inclusive association of British writers of crime.
And for the SWFA:
Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, Inc. was founded in 1965 by the American science fiction author Damon Knight and was originally named Science Fiction Writers of America.
In 1991, the name of the organization was changed to Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, although the acronym SFWA was not changed.
And indeed if we focus again on the CWA then it was actually founded with the explicit intention to help authors network:
Creasey became the first chairman of the Association which was founded with the aims of providing a social network for crime writers and to help them with business matters. In Creasey’s words: ‘to give reasonable hope that both the prestige and the fortunes of crime writers generally should be improved.’ An Information Service and an Information Panel were set up to assist members in their research, and in 1954, the CWA organised a successful National Crime Book Week.
- Location
- NYC (né Falkirk)
- Pronouns
- he/him
Again want to reiterate that it's good to see someone writing on the state of genre (or setting) with actual proposals beyond fan Calvinism.
That's the last thing I'll be reiterating, because a lot of these discussions seem to relitigate the same arguments over and over again they might as well be copy and pasted. Instead, want to talk about three points raised by @Skinny87 in the article:
First, on the subject of atomisation and fragmentation: are we sure this is the state of AH any more than the other genres brought up in the article? Does it just feel like AH is more atomised because it is so niche? As in, there are more arseholes self-publishing bigoted wish-fulfillment AH proportional to how much AH there is compared with horror or science fiction.
Continuing with atomisation: is this not a broader cultural trend outside of AH? A few genre awards are mentioned, but the Hugos are not the only SF award nor the Stokers the only horror. A lot of the indie publishers in the broader genres have a very niche focus as well, as pointed out with extreme horror.
Which brings us to genre vs. setting. In trying to piece together the shards of AH into one tent pole like fantasy or crime, are we not losing out on the benefit that AH can often exist in multiple genres? Indeed, it usually does: Novik's Temeraire is both fantasy and AH, Newman's Anno Dracula both horror and AH, Millar's Red Son both superhero and AH. Might there be more to gained in what connects AH to other genres rather than sets it apart?
On the notion of an Alternate History Writers Association: @Charles EP M. raises a good point about the need for some measure of clout to get it off the ground. The last thing such an endeavour needs is for it to be a clubhouse for SLP writers.
Who can work together? Inklings Press is mentioned as another publisher of AH, albeit as a small part of their overall output. Would an outreach to they or their authors be a good way of avoiding a clubhouse?
Lastly on a prospective AHWA, not sure how any of the broader genre associations would feel about affiliation? That would come down the line probably once the Association has been established, of course. But it could lend legitimacy were any of them to go for it as a distinct yet connected group. Do any of the horror associations have affiliation with science fiction, for example?
Lastly, Skinny brings up magazines with regular publication and notes the absence of any AH dedicated titles. Again, isn't this a broader trend when looked at outside of AH? Though fiction magazines exist in other genres they are few and far between with a gulf of difference between corporate and indie publications.
I say that but do agree that a regularly published title would have a chance. I've championed as much on here when speaking about broader pulp fiction. If question those few AH examples failed, but don't dismiss it as a gap to be filled. As to SLP's anthologies, might they too benefit from a regular publication schedule and a series branding? Retroactively applied to existing titles, naturally.
As a final point of the final point, and this is bringing up the overarching debacle so apologies, but warranted. Speaking purely as a reader: were any prospective AH magazine or anthology to entice me it would be on the merits of what it is rather than what it isn't. The only genre I think has such hand-wringing is crime over 'copaganda' a term I first encountered on a submissions page saying none will be expected. It was enough of a thing that when I saw a crime anthology earlier this year the only thing they could say about it as advertising was "copaganda free crime". That's fine, wouldn't enjoy it if I found stories like that, but don't know what the anthology actually contains, so passed. I think this New AH needs to be mindful about offering the good more than not offering the bad.
That's the last thing I'll be reiterating, because a lot of these discussions seem to relitigate the same arguments over and over again they might as well be copy and pasted. Instead, want to talk about three points raised by @Skinny87 in the article:
First, on the subject of atomisation and fragmentation: are we sure this is the state of AH any more than the other genres brought up in the article? Does it just feel like AH is more atomised because it is so niche? As in, there are more arseholes self-publishing bigoted wish-fulfillment AH proportional to how much AH there is compared with horror or science fiction.
Continuing with atomisation: is this not a broader cultural trend outside of AH? A few genre awards are mentioned, but the Hugos are not the only SF award nor the Stokers the only horror. A lot of the indie publishers in the broader genres have a very niche focus as well, as pointed out with extreme horror.
Which brings us to genre vs. setting. In trying to piece together the shards of AH into one tent pole like fantasy or crime, are we not losing out on the benefit that AH can often exist in multiple genres? Indeed, it usually does: Novik's Temeraire is both fantasy and AH, Newman's Anno Dracula both horror and AH, Millar's Red Son both superhero and AH. Might there be more to gained in what connects AH to other genres rather than sets it apart?
On the notion of an Alternate History Writers Association: @Charles EP M. raises a good point about the need for some measure of clout to get it off the ground. The last thing such an endeavour needs is for it to be a clubhouse for SLP writers.
Who can work together? Inklings Press is mentioned as another publisher of AH, albeit as a small part of their overall output. Would an outreach to they or their authors be a good way of avoiding a clubhouse?
Lastly on a prospective AHWA, not sure how any of the broader genre associations would feel about affiliation? That would come down the line probably once the Association has been established, of course. But it could lend legitimacy were any of them to go for it as a distinct yet connected group. Do any of the horror associations have affiliation with science fiction, for example?
Lastly, Skinny brings up magazines with regular publication and notes the absence of any AH dedicated titles. Again, isn't this a broader trend when looked at outside of AH? Though fiction magazines exist in other genres they are few and far between with a gulf of difference between corporate and indie publications.
I say that but do agree that a regularly published title would have a chance. I've championed as much on here when speaking about broader pulp fiction. If question those few AH examples failed, but don't dismiss it as a gap to be filled. As to SLP's anthologies, might they too benefit from a regular publication schedule and a series branding? Retroactively applied to existing titles, naturally.
As a final point of the final point, and this is bringing up the overarching debacle so apologies, but warranted. Speaking purely as a reader: were any prospective AH magazine or anthology to entice me it would be on the merits of what it is rather than what it isn't. The only genre I think has such hand-wringing is crime over 'copaganda' a term I first encountered on a submissions page saying none will be expected. It was enough of a thing that when I saw a crime anthology earlier this year the only thing they could say about it as advertising was "copaganda free crime". That's fine, wouldn't enjoy it if I found stories like that, but don't know what the anthology actually contains, so passed. I think this New AH needs to be mindful about offering the good more than not offering the bad.
If I missed parts 2 through 86 will I be able to follow the new one?Skinny87marink
Yes, as to this point specifically I'd say alternate history should be embracing of such works as these, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Fallout, and even Once Upon a Time in Hollywood as AH de facto. We saw from the Magazine interviews that no two pathways to writing AH were the same, that should be embraced.If you take Alternate history as anything that deviates from the world as we know it, anything and everything could be considered alternate history from The 1993 Super Mario Brothers Movie, Wild Wild West, the Ending to Kessen III, and a whole slew of other things.
First, on the subject of atomisation and fragmentation: are we sure this is the state of AH any more than the other genres brought up in the article? Does it just feel like AH is more atomised because it is so niche? As in, there are more arseholes self-publishing bigoted wish-fulfillment AH proportional to how much AH there is compared with horror or science fiction.
You're likely right about the bigoted arseholes and their actual number. A bigger problem, and this is likely why we keep coming back to them, would be that bigoted arseholes can sell really well in every genre but as AH is so much smaller, it can stick out more and cause us to cringe. Crime and sci-fi and horrors are healthy powers, romance is a money-hoarding beast of a genre, they can shrug off anything in the fringes as some whacky losers. The romance writers and readers aren't losing sleep over Genetically Pure Sex, or horror writers over Hockeymask Kills The Co-Workers I Hate. When AH has only one niche indie publisher and a few scattered anthologies and a small number of mainstream books each year, and a small number of dedicated fans, Rivers Of Blood: Enoch Powell Battles The Invaders With A Shotgun is more visible and embarrassing. We feel the need more to say "man, I know LikeTheRoman1968 not" three times before the rooster crows.
As to SLP's anthologies, might they too benefit from a regular publication schedule and a series branding? Retroactively applied to existing titles, naturally.
That could do it. "This quarter, SLP's The Alter Limits range brings out Hey, Caesar! about Romes that never fell"
@RyanF I just want to say thanks again for engaging with my essays in such detail it's hugely appreciated. You've got some fantastic points and I thought I'd respond to them point by point.
I'd also point out - both to yourself and others who have rightly questioned where and why and how it exists - the concept of New Alternate History belongs solely in my semi-feverish ramblings and is also a extremely loosely-defined concept was 'inspired' [read: artlessly cribbed] from the real concept of New Wave Science-Fiction. It wasn't intended to sound elitist at all, though I appreciate that simply hurling such a term into the public stage without defining it is something I should have considered
Anyway, to the points in question:
This is an interesting question I've been considering for a while since writing the article, and to an extent you are absolutely correct: when it comes to 'dodgy' genre fiction with wish fulfillment elements, is there much difference between Kratman-esque self-pubbed alternate history fiction and, say, the Extreme Horror subgenre and a certain author who revels in having his books sport plain black covers with CENSORED TOO F*CKED UP on the front because of how nauseating the content itself is? To that extent, no, in my opinion AH is no better nor worse than any other genre.
When it comes to the atomisation of the genre, however, I think there is a key difference that AH as a genre lacks that others have, although I'm struggling to properly define it. For lack of a better term I'm going to call it the 'Skeleton' or 'Framework' and by that I mean that although the Horror Genre - to take an example - has just as many niche subgenres and sub-subgenres as AH does, there is a framework of niche publishers, reviewers and fan groups that exist to 'knit' together even these tiny genres with reviews, promotions, publications etc, small ecosystems which in turn feed into the wider Horror genre ecosystem that comes together in 'nodes' like conventions, the Horror Writers Association etc. These are all, to an extent, outward-looking in a way that the AH genre with its forums and FB groups just don't really seem to be - hence my point in the first essay about a lack of groupings to advertise AH fiction reviews to
Here we strike at the core of the issue of whether Alternate History is a genre, a sub-genre or an Ur-genre that covers everything and nothing simultaneously. I know that @monroe has spoken about struggling to define that, and I'm going to have a stab at it in a later essay, but can't promise any original or mind-blowing thoughts
Now here I'll highlight that, as with the 'concept' of New Alternate History, any theoretical Alternate History Writers Association is entirely fictional and non-existent, and indeed I'd argue that it would be better *not* to create any such organisation unless it could bring together a much broader element of the AH community, such as it were. To the latter point, I do know that many genre associations like the SFWA and HWA are supportive of each other, though I don't know there's much 'cross-pollination' in terms of anything official like publications
Now something that's come up in recent times - at least before I fell off the end of the planet in early 2022 - was that this was actually a new Silver Age for 'zines of various subgenres, with a number being launched via Kickstarters, Patreons etc and doing quite well, if not in some spectacular manner. A regularly-published AH-focused 'zine of some kind might well be feasible in some manner, though of course how it would define AH is an entire issue in of itself. It would be interesting to get into contact with the publisher of the AH 'Zine I mentioned in the essay to query whether it finished due to issues with soliciting stories from the genre, or whether it was more mundane financial/personal/business circumstances instead. That's going to be something I'm focusing on in a later essay I'm cooking up.
I'd also point out - both to yourself and others who have rightly questioned where and why and how it exists - the concept of New Alternate History belongs solely in my semi-feverish ramblings and is also a extremely loosely-defined concept was 'inspired' [read: artlessly cribbed] from the real concept of New Wave Science-Fiction. It wasn't intended to sound elitist at all, though I appreciate that simply hurling such a term into the public stage without defining it is something I should have considered
Anyway, to the points in question:
First, on the subject of atomisation and fragmentation: are we sure this is the state of AH any more than the other genres brought up in the article? Does it just feel like AH is more atomised because it is so niche? As in, there are more arseholes self-publishing bigoted wish-fulfillment AH proportional to how much AH there is compared with horror or science fiction.
Continuing with atomisation: is this not a broader cultural trend outside of AH? A few genre awards are mentioned, but the Hugos are not the only SF award nor the Stokers the only horror. A lot of the indie publishers in the broader genres have a very niche focus as well, as pointed out with extreme horror.
This is an interesting question I've been considering for a while since writing the article, and to an extent you are absolutely correct: when it comes to 'dodgy' genre fiction with wish fulfillment elements, is there much difference between Kratman-esque self-pubbed alternate history fiction and, say, the Extreme Horror subgenre and a certain author who revels in having his books sport plain black covers with CENSORED TOO F*CKED UP on the front because of how nauseating the content itself is? To that extent, no, in my opinion AH is no better nor worse than any other genre.
When it comes to the atomisation of the genre, however, I think there is a key difference that AH as a genre lacks that others have, although I'm struggling to properly define it. For lack of a better term I'm going to call it the 'Skeleton' or 'Framework' and by that I mean that although the Horror Genre - to take an example - has just as many niche subgenres and sub-subgenres as AH does, there is a framework of niche publishers, reviewers and fan groups that exist to 'knit' together even these tiny genres with reviews, promotions, publications etc, small ecosystems which in turn feed into the wider Horror genre ecosystem that comes together in 'nodes' like conventions, the Horror Writers Association etc. These are all, to an extent, outward-looking in a way that the AH genre with its forums and FB groups just don't really seem to be - hence my point in the first essay about a lack of groupings to advertise AH fiction reviews to
Which brings us to genre vs. setting. In trying to piece together the shards of AH into one tent pole like fantasy or crime, are we not losing out on the benefit that AH can often exist in multiple genres? Indeed, it usually does: Novik's Temeraire is both fantasy and AH, Newman's Anno Dracula both horror and AH, Millar's Red Son both superhero and AH. Might there be more to gained in what connects AH to other genres rather than sets it apart?
Here we strike at the core of the issue of whether Alternate History is a genre, a sub-genre or an Ur-genre that covers everything and nothing simultaneously. I know that @monroe has spoken about struggling to define that, and I'm going to have a stab at it in a later essay, but can't promise any original or mind-blowing thoughts
On the notion of an Alternate History Writers Association: @Charles EP M. raises a good point about the need for some measure of clout to get it off the ground. The last thing such an endeavour needs is for it to be a clubhouse for SLP writers.
Who can work together? Inklings Press is mentioned as another publisher of AH, albeit as a small part of their overall output. Would an outreach to they or their authors be a good way of avoiding a clubhouse?
Lastly on a prospective AHWA, not sure how any of the broader genre associations would feel about affiliation? That would come down the line probably once the Association has been established, of course. But it could lend legitimacy were any of them to go for it as a distinct yet connected group. Do any of the horror associations have affiliation with science fiction, for example?
Now here I'll highlight that, as with the 'concept' of New Alternate History, any theoretical Alternate History Writers Association is entirely fictional and non-existent, and indeed I'd argue that it would be better *not* to create any such organisation unless it could bring together a much broader element of the AH community, such as it were. To the latter point, I do know that many genre associations like the SFWA and HWA are supportive of each other, though I don't know there's much 'cross-pollination' in terms of anything official like publications
Lastly, Skinny brings up magazines with regular publication and notes the absence of any AH dedicated titles. Again, isn't this a broader trend when looked at outside of AH? Though fiction magazines exist in other genres they are few and far between with a gulf of difference between corporate and indie publications.
I say that but do agree that a regularly published title would have a chance. I've championed as much on here when speaking about broader pulp fiction. If question those few AH examples failed, but don't dismiss it as a gap to be filled. As to SLP's anthologies, might they too benefit from a regular publication schedule and a series branding? Retroactively applied to existing titles, naturally.
As a final point of the final point, and this is bringing up the overarching debacle so apologies, but warranted. Speaking purely as a reader: were any prospective AH magazine or anthology to entice me it would be on the merits of what it is rather than what it isn't. The only genre I think has such hand-wringing is crime over 'copaganda' a term I first encountered on a submissions page saying none will be expected. It was enough of a thing that when I saw a crime anthology earlier this year the only thing they could say about it as advertising was "copaganda free crime". That's fine, wouldn't enjoy it if I found stories like that, but don't know what the anthology actually contains, so passed. I think this New AH needs to be mindful about offering the good more than not offering the bad.
Now something that's come up in recent times - at least before I fell off the end of the planet in early 2022 - was that this was actually a new Silver Age for 'zines of various subgenres, with a number being launched via Kickstarters, Patreons etc and doing quite well, if not in some spectacular manner. A regularly-published AH-focused 'zine of some kind might well be feasible in some manner, though of course how it would define AH is an entire issue in of itself. It would be interesting to get into contact with the publisher of the AH 'Zine I mentioned in the essay to query whether it finished due to issues with soliciting stories from the genre, or whether it was more mundane financial/personal/business circumstances instead. That's going to be something I'm focusing on in a later essay I'm cooking up.
- Location
- NYC (né Falkirk)
- Pronouns
- he/him
That's sort of what I was driving at, that because it's niche and therefore has a smaller pool of works the diarrhetic spewings make up a greater proportion of the total. Certainly, the way Amazon has no way of distinguishing (or no desire to distinguish) between The Years of Rice and Salt and The Erotic Adventures of Not a War Criminal Joachim Piper doesn't help in that regard.You're likely right about the bigoted arseholes and their actual number. A bigger problem, and this is likely why we keep coming back to them, would be that bigoted arseholes can sell really well in every genre but as AH is so much smaller, it can stick out more and cause us to cringe. Crime and sci-fi and horrors are healthy powers, romance is a money-hoarding beast of a genre, they can shrug off anything in the fringes as some whacky losers. The romance writers and readers aren't losing sleep over Genetically Pure Sex, or horror writers over Hockeymask Kills The Co-Workers I Hate. When AH has only one niche indie publisher and a few scattered anthologies and a small number of mainstream books each year, and a small number of dedicated fans, Rivers Of Blood: Enoch Powell Battles The Invaders With A Shotgun is more visible and embarrassing. We feel the need to say "man, I know LikeTheRoman1968 not" three times before the rooster crows.
That's the idea! Love the name too!That could do it. "This quarter, SLP's The Alter Limits range brings out Hey, Caesar! about Romes that never fell"
Like I keep saying, good to see someone tackle these from this perspective.@RyanF I just want to say thanks again for engaging with my essays in such detail it's hugely appreciated. You've got some fantastic points and I thought I'd respond to them point by point.
I think New Wave might have been less loaded than New. Though once I understood what you meant by it was a case of what's in a name?I'd also point out - both to yourself and others who have rightly questioned where and why and how it exists - the concept of New Alternate History belongs solely in my semi-feverish ramblings and is also a extremely loosely-defined concept was 'inspired' [read: artlessly cribbed] from the real concept of New Wave Science-Fiction. It wasn't intended to sound elitist at all, though I appreciate that simply hurling such a term into the public stage without defining it is something I should have considered
I almost suspect what you're driving at is respectability. As a reader, I know what science fiction looks like, and therefore can probably spot dodgy science fiction from the 'mainstream'. However, I don't read much romance so would be less able to spot the difference between a mainstream work and a dodgy work.When it comes to the atomisation of the genre, however, I think there is a key difference that AH as a genre lacks that others have, although I'm struggling to properly define it. For lack of a better term I'm going to call it the 'Skeleton' or 'Framework' and by that I mean that although the Horror Genre - to take an example - has just as many niche subgenres and sub-subgenres as AH does, there is a framework of niche publishers, reviewers and fan groups that exist to 'knit' together even these tiny genres with reviews, promotions, publications etc, small ecosystems which in turn feed into the wider Horror genre ecosystem that comes together in 'nodes' like conventions, the Horror Writers Association etc. These are all, to an extent, outward-looking in a way that the AH genre with its forums and FB groups just don't really seem to be - hence my point in the first essay about a lack of groupings to advertise AH fiction reviews to
That's why I brought up connecting with the AH writers at Inklings (I think we have some overlap but the Venn diagram looks like a still dividing zygote) and anyone else in the genre that's pukka. That's not even back of an envelope, but it's the sort of thing that'd come up plotting in a pub (guess where I am right now!)Now here I'll highlight that, as with the 'concept' of New Alternate History, any theoretical Alternate History Writers Association is entirely fictional and non-existent, and indeed I'd argue that it would be better *not* to create any such organisation unless it could bring together a much broader element of the AH community, such as it were. To the latter point, I do know that many genre associations like the SFWA and HWA are supportive of each other, though I don't know there's much 'cross-pollination' in terms of anything official like publications
May have missed your glorious return in my self-imposed exile of The Pub, so just want to say here I'm very, very glad to see you active again here.Now something that's come up in recent times - at least before I fell off the end of the planet in early 2022 -
We need to talk, I've been having recurring fever dreams in that direction.was that this was actually a new Silver Age for 'zines of various subgenres, with a number being launched via Kickstarters, Patreons etc and doing quite well, if not in some spectacular manner.
As a first reaction I'd say as broad as possible, like with the pulps.A regularly-published AH-focused 'zine of some kind might well be feasible in some manner, though of course how it would define AH is an entire issue in of itself.
"A narrow definition of a genre, in this economy?"
Aye, that's something I thought of reading your article, why did those magazines cease? The three years date did make me think of that pandemic thingy, but the other causes you raise are equally possible.It would be interesting to get into contact with the publisher of the AH 'Zine I mentioned in the essay to query whether it finished due to issues with soliciting stories from the genre, or whether it was more mundane financial/personal/business circumstances instead. That's going to be something I'm focusing on in a later essay I'm cooking up.
Now something that's come up in recent times - at least before I fell off the end of the planet in early 2022 - was that this was actually a new Silver Age for 'zines of various subgenres, with a number being launched via Kickstarters, Patreons etc and doing quite well, if not in some spectacular manner. A regularly-published AH-focused 'zine of some kind might well be feasible in some manner, though of course how it would define AH is an entire issue in of itself.
Oh yeah, magazines and comics and small anthologies can do gangbusters on there as long as enough people show up. I've idly wondered if a digest-sized AH comic could work - inspired by the sci-fi fantasy Sentinel by Allan Holloway doing repeated issues by kickstarter - and am stopped only by the whole "artists need paying" issue
That's sort of what I was driving at, that because it's niche and therefore has a smaller pool of works the diarrhetic spewings make up a greater proportion of the total. Certainly, the way Amazon has no way of distinguishing (or no desire to distinguish) between The Years of Rice and Salt and The Erotic Adventures of Not a War Criminal Joachim Piper doesn't help in that regard.
A big downside of being counted as a science fiction subgenre - "well these are the same subgenre, right?" (At least we're not the LGBT fiction section where it's like "porn for straight guys, that fits here right")
I'm going to be a devil's advocate and say that I don't think that would be so good in practice. First it comes across even to me (someone sympathetic to it!) as trying to cling on to something bigger-and something that often will have very little in common besides the tiny thread of "alternate timeline"[1]. It's like saying "if you liked this fluffy romance novel set on a ranch, you'll love both My Little Pony and this pop epic about the Mongol Empire because they all prominently feature horses."Yes, as to this point specifically I'd say alternate history should be embracing of such works as these, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Fallout, and even Once Upon a Time in Hollywood as AH de facto. We saw from the Magazine interviews that no two pathways to writing AH were the same, that should be embraced.
Second, its an uphill climb because as I've said ad nauseum most of that stuff just isn't considered or marketed as alternate history. What this means is that there isn't a connection in the minds of almost all readers.
Where I think such things can work is by encouraging people who do write self-proclaimed AH to take inspiration from them, which will also alleviate (if only slightly) the "too few PODs" problem.
There's another element to something that relies so heavily on internet self-publishing. See, what else is in communities on the internet, is clearly based on something that already existed, often with big names, and due to a lack of filters has both massive quantities and a lack of quality control: That's right-fan fiction. I call AH "historical fanfiction" often without any malice or exaggeration. And unfortunately that means it comes with the downsides of fanfiction.That's sort of what I was driving at, that because it's niche and therefore has a smaller pool of works the diarrhetic spewings make up a greater proportion of the total. Certainly, the way Amazon has no way of distinguishing (or no desire to distinguish) between The Years of Rice and Salt and The Erotic Adventures of Not a War Criminal Joachim Piper doesn't help in that regard.
(In fact, I should really write a big post about the similarities between Timeline AH and this type of strange pseudo-RP fanfiction called "jumpchains", where both have very small niche communties, both have essentially no appeal to outsiders, even those who don't mind lowbrow fiction in that nominal genre, and both have a structure that in theory but almost never in practice can be beneficial for the story they seemingly want to tell.)
- Location
- NYC (né Falkirk)
- Pronouns
- he/him
I've sort of worked out you need at least 6 staff writers for a monthly publication, hopefully bringing in 1 or 2 guests an issue. But all those writers basically need to be partners in the endeavor who are aware they're not seeing anything beyond the price of a Freddo each cycle for 3-5 years.Oh yeah, magazines and comics and small anthologies can do gangbusters on there as long as enough people show up. I've idly wondered if a digest-sized AH comic could work - inspired by the sci-fi fantasy Sentinel by Allan Holloway doing repeated issues by kickstarter - and am stopped only by the whole "artists need paying" issue
Or never, if that's how it turns out.
- Location
- North Alabama
The magazines point is a good one. Indeed, one of my frequent frustrations in trying to get my AH stuff published was finding such a venue. the only one I've ever come across was the aforementioned Alt Hist but in the nine years of being aware of it, I could count on one hand the number of times it was open for submissions. Submitting to SF or even historical fiction anthologies or magazines has produced mixed results, to put it mildly. I've experienced rejections from SF editors saying 'this is more historical fiction that SF and thus not what we're looking for while historical fiction editors will say 'Isn't this sci-fi?' One story that got those sorts of response ended up, by virtue of having a 'haunting' element, in a horror anthology of all things.
Having written for Doctor Who fanzines of different kinds that kicked up in the late noughties, I can say this: you need an editor or two to sustain it who is determined to actually have a product out on a regular basis. Beyond that, what @RyanF says about needing essentially staff writers is key. The longest running fanzines I've written for had editors who ran them as a hobby (though both essentially closed shop at different points for their own reasons, only to reopen on at least temporary ongoing basis) and a handful of us regularly contributing. Not necessarily to every issue but perhaps every second or third one. Finding that crew is as much a challenge as finding people to actually read the final product.
Having written for Doctor Who fanzines of different kinds that kicked up in the late noughties, I can say this: you need an editor or two to sustain it who is determined to actually have a product out on a regular basis. Beyond that, what @RyanF says about needing essentially staff writers is key. The longest running fanzines I've written for had editors who ran them as a hobby (though both essentially closed shop at different points for their own reasons, only to reopen on at least temporary ongoing basis) and a handful of us regularly contributing. Not necessarily to every issue but perhaps every second or third one. Finding that crew is as much a challenge as finding people to actually read the final product.
- Location
- A home of love and laughter.
Having written for Doctor Who fanzines of different kinds that kicked up in the late noughties, I can say this: you need an editor or two to sustain it who is determined to actually have a product out on a regular basis. Beyond that, what @RyanF says about needing essentially staff writers is key. The longest running fanzines I've written for had editors who ran them as a hobby (though both essentially closed shop at different points for their own reasons, only to reopen on at least temporary ongoing basis) and a handful of us regularly contributing. Not necessarily to every issue but perhaps every second or third one. Finding that crew is as much a challenge as finding people to actually read the final product.
Having done trade press editing, and contributed to a number of assorted embarrassing fanzines (details on request) and known a number of editors of said fanzines, I concur with every word.
Getting the damn thing out on time is crucial. "No-one is going to read stuff that doesn't get produced."
And please, people, don't look at me. The badge on my name might say Magazine Editor, but that doesn't mean I have the time to be the editor of a real, physical, hold-it-in-your-hands magazine.
This blog is quite time-consuming enough.