Sport in Alternate History. Part 1.

[David Flin]

Put on your running shoes and comment on this article by @Pete U here.

 

[Alex Richards]

I wonder if the very omnipresence of sport chat in society and the sort of casual AH discussions in the pub or the papers after each match actually hinder large-scale Sports AH- it makes a lot of the casual things people know about into something which they could 'just go have a chat in the pub' if they wanted to chat about it, leaving just the obscure and the highly technical left.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

Jesus, that cricketing caption.

 

[Pete U]

I wonder if the very omnipresence of sport chat in society and the sort of casual AH discussions in the pub or the papers after each match actually hinder large-scale Sports AH- it makes a lot of the casual things people know about into something which they could 'just go have a chat in the pub' if they wanted to chat about it, leaving just the obscure and the highly technical left.

Possibly - I think there could be a parallel with pop culture TLs (and within TLs) as well

 

[David Flin]

I wonder if the very omnipresence of sport chat in society and the sort of casual AH discussions in the pub or the papers after each match actually hinder large-scale Sports AH- it makes a lot of the casual things people know about into something which they could 'just go have a chat in the pub' if they wanted to chat about it, leaving just the obscure and the highly technical left.

Not something I had previously considered. It sounds plausible.

Jesus, that cricketing caption.

Of course, if you are inspired to write a rebuttal...

 

[Charles EP M.]

The irl-quidditch pic, that reminds me of people routinely questioning how that sport as-written works as a sport (usually "so if one guy gets this ball the rest of the game doesn't matter"). So that's another bar to AH Sports: if it's not real and isn't very like a real sport, will the fake rules seem like a workable sport to readers? The author can't play it to make sure it's playable

 

[SenatorChickpea]

I mean the thing with Quidditch is that it's a terrible sport that also succeeds brilliantly in the actual aim of being something that fascinates a ten-year-old reader.

There's a lot you can hit the author with, but I always think the critiques of her world-building (in the books, not her... later statements) miss the point a little. World-building isn't everything.

 

[Charles EP M.]

The worldbuilding can't support the expectations of adults who want it to seem as coherent as when they were kids and understood emotionally "of course all the bullies are in the same house". (Though the books and spinoff media are a victim of their own sales demands, as that's what people were encouraged to believe so sales would stay up and the author wanted to show off worldbuilding with a fancy website about schools based on stereotypes like Dredd cities)

 

[Pete U]

The irl-quidditch pic, that reminds me of people routinely questioning how that sport as-written works as a sport (usually "so if one guy gets this ball the rest of the game doesn't matter"). So that's another bar to AH Sports: if it's not real and isn't very like a real sport, will the fake rules seem like a workable sport to readers? The author can't play it to make sure it's playable

IIRC (and it is a loooong time since I read HP, or watched the films) doesn't someone catch the snitch and lose the game on purpose at one point?

There's a wider point (often espoused by non-sports fans, or occasionally sports fans who realise that things can not make sense) that most mainstream sports seem a little silly - 22* people chasing a bag of air round a field is, on the face of it, not a sensible thing

* - other numbers are available

 

[Charles EP M.]

IIRC (and it is a loooong time since I read HP, or watched the films) doesn't someone catch the snitch and lose the game on purpose at one point?

Yeah, IIRC it was so they'd lose now but the score would be closer rather than risk losing  and having a low score.

 

[Coiler]

I mean the thing with Quidditch is that it's a terrible sport that also succeeds brilliantly in the actual aim of being something that fascinates a ten-year-old reader.

I think Quidditch works well enough as an Eton Wall Game type improvised school semi-sport. You can see it as the sort of thing that was cobbled together with a few things on hand that became a tradition.

As a formal, universal, organized sport? Not so much.

(Agreed on its true use in literary terms, btw)

 

[Talwar]

Explanations. Constant Explanations

That was the big issue for me when I wrote something for Gary's sports antho, and I'll certainly be curious to see if there was too much, not enough, or just enough of it when readers get their hands on it.

 

[Coiler]

The worldbuilding can't support the expectations of adults who want it to seem as coherent as when they were kids and understood emotionally "of course all the bullies are in the same house".

Incidentally, each house fits well with the good side of a Warhammer Chaos god.

-Griffyndor: Khorne, bravery and courage
-Hufflepuff: Nurgle, modesty (kind of the biggest stretch)
-Ravenclaw: Tzeentch, pursuit of wisdom and intelligence
-Slytherin: Slaanesh, ambition, drive to succeed

 

[Coiler]

I'll also add that one fictional sport that helped inspire a real one is the "Kumite" in Van Damme's Bloodsport, whose depiction of a mixed-styles tournament was a massive influence on early MMA.

 

[JesterBL]

The irl-quidditch pic, that reminds me of people routinely questioning how that sport as-written works as a sport (usually "so if one guy gets this ball the rest of the game doesn't matter"). So that's another bar to AH Sports: if it's not real and isn't very like a real sport, will the fake rules seem like a workable sport to readers? The author can't play it to make sure it's playable

It's all rules-dependent- if Quidditch is a promotion-and-relegation system where the season's total point spread matters, suddenly the snitch is not a completely silly game mechanic, but something which the captains and coaches and seekers can strategize on, and where there may be a reason for the rest of the game mechanics and players to go on.

I discussed in another thread here about sumo wrestling and how that sport's rules encourage what looks to outside observers like cheating- this was discussed by the Freakonomics folks as some expression of a unique Japanese cultural trait but is in fact more or less identical to pre-WW2 fencing rulesets and player behaviors (the lack of weight classes in Sumo is also what has led to the size increases of the last half century, rather than any specific Japanese aesthetic sense). Rules greatly change an entire game, even where people try to view them as somehow more pure expressions of athleticism and skill. A great example is MMA- it has given rise to discussions about a supposedly 'optimal' martial art, but its rules (especially the caged format, but also no-gi vs. gi) has disadvantaged certain styles (ex-Sumos, for one, who would likely dominate if ring-outs were a thing) to the advantage of certain others (especially BJJ).

Overall I think part of the reason you may see less of it in online AH is because there's less quality scholarship around sports- even if I wanted to try and trace some alternate sport's origins and evolutions, I only have a handful of good sports social science to tell on when tracing that path.

 

[Coiler]

It's all rules-dependent- if Quidditch is a promotion-and-relegation system where the season's total point spread matters, suddenly the snitch is not a completely silly game mechanic, but something which the captains and coaches and seekers can strategize on, and where there may be a reason for the rest of the game mechanics and players to go on.

Of course there's something else where the point spread matters a lot: Gambling.

I could do an entire post on possible alternate histories of sports betting. Not just stuff like the US legalizing it earlier or consumer protection laws keeping books from banning/ultra-limiting winners, but also what sports could be influenced by it. Like most animal races, which are more or less completely and totally there for gamblers.

 

[JesterBL]

Of course there's something else where the point spread matters a lot: Gambling.

I could do an entire post on possible alternate histories of sports betting. Not just stuff like the US legalizing it earlier or consumer protection laws keeping books from banning/ultra-limiting winners, but also what sports could be influenced by it. Like most animal races, which are more or less completely and totally there for gamblers.

I always thought pari-mutuel sports betting would be an interesting way to sidestep the suspicions of bookmakers.

 

[RyanF]

Loved the respect paid to Rollerball for creating a game that is actually interesting, but would also like to mention the 1989 post-Apocalyptic Australian film The Salute of the Jugger (The Blood of Heroes in the US). The film pales as post-Apocalyptic to Max Mad, naturally, and as fictitious sports to Rollerball, but one thing it did achieve was inspire real-life adoption of the fictional sport independently across Australia, Germany and the US.

 

[Charles EP M.]

Of course there's something else where the point spread matters a lot: Gambling.

"Harry, you rotter! You caught the Snitch too early and now Harry the Bastard's going to break our legs!"

 

[Pete U]

I'll also add that one fictional sport that helped inspire a real one is the "Kumite" in Van Damme's Bloodsport, whose depiction of a mixed-styles tournament was a massive influence on early MMA.

That would be a good add to the fictional sports part - I've never seen the film, so had missed that during my research