• Hi Guest!

    The costs of running this forum are covered by Sea Lion Press. If you'd like to help support the company and the forum, visit patreon.com/sealionpress

Frankish Northern Gaul

Redolegna

Champagne Socialist
Moderator
Published by SLP
Location
Paris
Pronouns
he/him
100,000 or so Franks.

10,000,000 or so Gauls. Cut that in half for only the northern half, roughly.

And Franks who only hold half Gauls would have to face much bigger legitimacy issues as well as being pressed by neighbouring attacks much harder.

Why would they want to, anyway? The Gallo-Roman culture and administrative system was clearly attractive to them as a way to rule conquered lands.
 

Nyvis

Token Marxist
Location
Paris
Pronouns
She/Her
You'd need them to go even smaller for that to happen.

I wonder if a slightly stronger Gallo-Roman remnant that wins a battle or two could shove them into a Normandy style deal where they only take a region and settle it?
 

Ricardolindo

Well-known member
Location
Portugal
100,000 or so Franks.

10,000,000 or so Gauls. Cut that in half for only the northern half, roughly.

And Franks who only hold half Gauls would have to face much bigger legitimacy issues as well as being pressed by neighbouring attacks much harder.

Why would they want to, anyway? The Gallo-Roman culture and administrative system was clearly attractive to them as a way to rule conquered lands.
You'd need them to go even smaller for that to happen.

I wonder if a slightly stronger Gallo-Roman remnant that wins a battle or two could shove them into a Normandy style deal where they only take a region and settle it?
In our timeline, the Franks did manage to Germanize some Romance areas, ie the Rhineland, Alsace-Lorraine and Flanders.
 
The amount of Frankish settlement South of the Loire after they defeated and expelled/ conquered the Visigothic kingdom S of it in 507 is thought by most historians to have been limited in any case. It was mostly 'elite' and administrative, with senior Frankish warriors trusted by their kings ruling as 'counts' (then a term used for a senior-ranking military rank , originally in the Roman army, with increasing local admin duties too if and when the Roman civilian administrative hierarchy collapsed in the C5th) over specific, limited regional areas - mostly towns and cities. These would then act as the kings' 'eyes and ears' there, command local troops, and collect taxes ; and they and their families often had lands granted to them there too, to provide food to feed their households and their personal bodyguards.
But this was not intended as a large-scale settlement, just as establishing political control and harnessing the region's taxes and soldiers for the new Frankish rulers (whose 'home cities' after which their kingdoms were called in the mid-late C6th were all N of the Loire, eg Paris and Soissons and Rheims). S of the Loire the Frankish presence was limited in numbers, and mostly small-scale, administrative plus personal military entourages of the said commanders. The divergance in language and culture between the 'Langue d'Oeiul' in the N of France and the 'Langue d'Oc' in the S has been traced to this effective cultural/ ethnic division, with the previous Latinate/ Romance language used all over Gaul pre-conquest surviving stronger in the S due to fewer Franks living there in the C6th and C7th. Also, there was a distinct separatist identity to Aquitaine (previously a separate Roman province based on Burdigala/ Bordeaux ) and to Septimania/ Provence (which remained Visigothic to the Arab conquest in the 720s) well into the C8th, with resistance by the dukes of Aquitaine to the rule of the Merovingian and later Carolingian rulers.

As far as Alt Hist goes, if the Arabs do not conquer Spain and Septimania and pressurise Aquitaine from the S, would the region have been more secure and militarily able to survive on its own (no raids or invasions from the S after 711) and so able to fend off the Carolingians? I have played with the idea of a stronger Eastern Roman presence in Italy (eg if there was a quick Ostrogothic collapse in the 530s , Belisarius killed Totila quickly in 542, or there was no plague in the mid-540s) enabling Justinian to send troops into Provence and as far as Narbonne or even Toulouse in the 540s, thus detaching the Mediterranean-centred economic and cultural world of SE Gaul from 'Francia' for centuries to come. This was after all the urbanised, Meditt-centred original Roman province of Gaul before Caesar moved North to annex the entire 'France' area in 58 BC; its detachment from the N was nothing new. It had a surviving stratum of Gallo-Roman landowners and clergy through the C6th even under the Franks in OTL; its main problem as a 'Byz province' long-term would have been its lack of a secure geographical barrier to attack from the North if the Byz did not hold Lyons and the entire Rhone valley or have a strong force around the upper Garonne (or if the locals resented playing Byz taxes).
 
Top