Football PoDs and alternate possibilities.

[DocU]

Is there a way to make 2007-8 Derby County even worse?

Have Kenny Miller get injured for three months in the game against Liverpool, taking out the scorer of goals worth 4 points, including their winner at home vs Newcastle. Given he was the top scorer (with 4!), and they didn't score in nearly 2 1/2 MONTHS (Oct, Nov and the first game of Dec), it's not inconceivable they could spin that out some more

 

[OwenM]

Thought that occurred just now - what if Leeds had beaten Watford at the Millennium Stadium in 2006 and made a much earlier return to the Premiership instead of falling down to League One the next season?

 

[Elektronaut]

Thought that occurred just now - what if Leeds had beaten Watford at the Millennium Stadium in 2006 and made a much earlier return to the Premiership instead of falling down to League One the next season?

Had Ken Bates taken them over by that point or were they still in that weird transitional board phase?

You can rate their chances of staying up by that. If they can stay up they could potentially be in line for a big money takeover, but if they go down it's potentially the last sixteen years with modifications.

 

[OwenM]

Thought I might cross-post this:

Shockingly convergent, and not really sure it fits, but for a bit of fun:

List of football champions in the English Workers' Commonwealth

English Football Championship
(Council teams under Olympic system)
1919-20 Birmingham XI
1920-21 London XI
1921-22 Huddersfield XI
1922-23 Bolton and District XI
1923-24 Newcastle XI
1924-25 Sheffield Federated XI
1925-26 Bolton and District XI
1926-27 Cardiff XI
1927-28 Blackburn and District XI
1928-29 Bolton and District XI
1929-30 London XI
1930-31 Birmingham XI
1931-32 Newcastle XI
English Football Championship First Group
(Council teams under league system)
1932-33 London XI
1933-34 London XI
1934-35 London XI
English Football Championship Group A
(Society teams under league system)
1935-36 Sunderland Falcon
1936-37 Manchester Clarion
1937-38 London Arsenal
1938-39 Liverpool Red Banner
(Interrupted by war)
English Football Championship Group One
1946-47 Liverpool Clarion
1947-48 London Arsenal
1948-49 Portsmouth Partisan
1949-50 Portsmouth Partisan
1950-51 London Falcon
1951-52 Manchester Locomotive

 

[DocU]

I was reading a thing where someone visited the site of all the grounds Sheffield Wednesday had played at, as best he could (on their 150th anniversary, starting at The Crucible, built on the site of the hotel where the meeting that started the football version of The Wednesday happened). When he got to Bramall Lane, the piece suggested that the reason Wednesday stopped playing there was the the committee put the rent up too much (Wednesday played bigger games there). The committee then started their own team (the Mighty Blades (TM)) to take the place of the Wednesday revenue.

So, if true, what happens if Wednesday and the SUCC committee can come to an arrangement?

Likewise, with Everton and the owners of Anfield

 

[Geordie]

I was reading a thing where someone visited the site of all the grounds Sheffield Wednesday had played at, as best he could (on their 150th anniversary, starting at The Crucible, built on the site of the hotel where the meeting that started the football version of The Wednesday happened). When he got to Bramall Lane, the piece suggested that the reason Wednesday stopped playing there was the the committee put the rent up too much (Wednesday played bigger games there). The committee then started their own team (the Mighty Blades (TM)) to take the place of the Wednesday revenue.

So, if true, what happens if Wednesday and the SUCC committee can come to an arrangement?

Likewise, with Everton and the owners of Anfield

CC for Cricket Club? It seems there's rather a lot of football clubs that started life as adjuncts to established cricket clubs.

On the PoD, I suppose it depends on whether you consider a potential single Sheffield team to have the potential to be more succesful than OTL's Wednesday and United. Might affect the culture of the city, too.

 

[DocU]

CC for Cricket Club? It seems there's rather a lot of football clubs that started life as adjuncts to established cricket clubs.

On the PoD, I suppose it depends on whether you consider a potential single Sheffield team to have the potential to be more succesful than OTL's Wednesday and United. Might affect the culture of the city, too.

An decent number of football clubs were establlished as something for the players to do over the winter/bring in some income for Cricket Clubs.

I think Sheffield being a single club city has potential for sure. How much more successful an alt-SWFC would be without their move(s) and another team in the city is open to debate. I think one impact would be that their 'derby' wouldn't be within the city, and I get your point that it could lead to a more unified and readily expressed Sheffield identity.

 

[Geordie]

An decent number of football clubs were establlished as something for the players to do over the winter/bring in some income for Cricket Clubs.

I think Sheffield being a single club city has potential for sure. How much more successful an alt-SWFC would be without their move(s) and another team in the city is open to debate. I think one impact would be that their 'derby' wouldn't be within the city, and I get your point that it could lead to a more unified and readily expressed Sheffield identity.

Yeah, the culture is a big one.

Newcastle is a one horse town. There are very few kids, even today, who support anybody else. It is part of the identity. I imaine that a Sheffield identity which is, at least in part, linked to Wednesday, rather than immediately broken in two by the question "Blades or Owls?" could lead to a different identity and feel. England's fourth biggest city, united around a single club, could be an interesting cultural phenomenon.

 

[RyanF]

Yeah, the culture is a big one.

Newcastle is a one horse town. There are very few kids, even today, who support anybody else. It is part of the identity. I imaine that a Sheffield identity which is, at least in part, linked to Wednesday, rather than immediately broken in two by the question "Blades or Owls?" could lead to a different identity and feel. England's fourth biggest city, united around a single club, could be an interesting cultural phenomenon.

Newcastle is one of the very few examples where the United name came about because the two major clubs in the town well, united. Though that didn't stop Newcastle East End and Newcastle West End also considering the names Newcastle City and Newcastle Rangers following their merger.

NCFC is a television standard used only in some Pacific Islands and NRFC is a one of the myriad of US security services.

 

[Geordie]

Newcastle is one of the very few examples where the United name came about because the two major clubs in the town well, united. Though that didn't stop Newcastle East End and Newcastle West End also considering the names Newcastle City and Newcastle Rangers following their merger.

NCFC is a television standard used only in some Pacific Islands and NRFC is a one of the myriad of US security services.

the first Newcastle Rangers were an older team, who were the original tenants of St James', IIRC. They'd fallen away by the time Newcastle East and West merged, so that was where the idea of reviviing the name came from. Well, I say merged, it was more of a takeover, as West had lost a lot of money though an unsuccesful flotation on the stock market, and East moved in and took their assets. The union was more a PR device to prevent West's fans being disgruntled at the takeover. West played in the attractive blue and burgundy hoops strip, which is always a favourite when revived as an away top. East, on the other hand, played in red and white stripes, which is rather ironic.

 

[DocU]

the first Newcastle Rangers were an older team, who were the original tenants of St James', IIRC. They'd fallen away by the time Newcastle East and West merged, so that was where the idea of reviviing the name came from. Well, I say merged, it was more of a takeover, as West had lost a lot of money though an unsuccesful flotation on the stock market, and East moved in and took their assets. The union was more a PR device to prevent West's fans being disgruntled at the takeover. West played in the attractive blue and burgundy hoops strip, which is always a favourite when revived as an away top. East, on the other hand, played in red and white stripes, which is rather ironic.

Which (along wih @OwenM 's soviet style post) reminds of another silly little POD - what if clubs were not allowed to change thier name once founded (via some sort of convention), and the oldest name took precedence in the event of a merger? So we would have Newcastle East End, The Wednesday, St Mary's, St Mark's and so on, and Dial Square have just won the FA Cup again

 

[RyanF]

Which (along wih @OwenM 's soviet style post) reminds of another silly little POD - what if clubs were not allowed to change thier name once founded (via some sort of convention), and the oldest name took precedence in the event of a merger? So we would have Newcastle East End, The Wednesday, St Mary's, St Mark's and so on, and Dial Square have just won the FA Cup again

Not to mention Newton Heath, Dundee Hibernian, Ferranti Thistle, Thames Ironworks, though Wimbledon Old Central present an interesting case.

 

[DocU]

Not to mention Newton Heath, Dundee Hibernian, Ferranti Thistle, Thames Ironworks, though Wimbledon Old Central present an interesting case.

Wimbledon Old Central play in Milton Keynes, obviously. AFC Wimbledon Old Central are in London, in the ground they used to share with Kingston & Surbiton YMCA

 

[RobinCarmody]

apropos the mention on the first page of Guildford City not being elected to the Third Division South after they won the Southern League, might football as a whole have gained a greater middle-class appeal sooner if they had, and been successful on a par with Ipswich in OTL? Just thought of that one out of thin air ...

 

[Catalunya]

Always wondered how football would progress if Mourinho had been appointed at Barcelona in 2008 instead of Guardiola.

 

[Geordie]

Always wondered how football would progress if Mourinho had been appointed at Barcelona in 2008 instead of Guardiola.

That's a PoD worthy of consideration. Not sure I have many of the answers, but it's definitely one that unleashes a horde of butterfies across the elit European game, especially in Manchester!

 

[Gary Oswald]

Bit of an odd one, but Sunderland were twice turned down for the English League in the 1880s because they were too far away from the west midlands/lancashire heart of the league and it was deemed uneconomic. Sunderland's spin off club and rival, the all amateur Sunderland Albion, formed by players who'd left the club out of protests over it's increased commercial direction were in fact the first Sunderland club to play in a league being founder members of the Football Alliance and joining the Northern League in it's second season, alongside the other north east amateur teams such as Middlesbrough, Darlington and the two Newcastle teams, West and East End.

In 1890 Sunderland were accepted into the league after offering to pay for the other clubs travel costs and Stoke City, twice bottom, were unelected by the other members.

But lets say they weren't. Stoke play a bit better and the meeting between Sunderland and the other league teams goes a bit worse.

On the one hand, you could reasonably delay a truly national league forming. Woolwich Arsenal would turn pro in 1891 and their initial desire was to form a Southern League, which the Football League reacted to by inviting Arsenal into their league rather than allowing a competitor to grow. If instead the league are more parochial maybe the Southern League goes ahead and you see a much more German situation in victorian football, rather than the national league of OTL. The Northern League would seem an obvious choice to take off in this world, except for its determinedly amateur and Sunderland aren't. Not to mention the genuine bad blood between Sunderland Albion and Sunderland, Sunderland had previously withdrawn from the FA Cup to avoid playing them and thus giving them gate receipts.

But well the Scottish League formed in 1890 and Glasgow is closer to Sunderland than Birmingham. Would you possibly see Sunderland apply to that league, they tended to have a very scottish team in the early days?

In which case, could Albion remain a going proposition and Sunderland become a two team city, which each team playing in different countries?

It's probably hugely unlikely, but it's something that struck when I was walking to work as a fun wacky football pod.

 

[RyanF]

Very interesting proposition, @Gary Oswald. So we might see the Football League, the Scottish League, a Southern League, and a Northern League.

Not sustainable in the long-term probably, especially if wider history largely proceeds as OTL, but I wonder eventually when the need for consolidation becomes too great it might be done on a Great Britain wide basis if the Scottish League has a few prominent teams based in England.

 

[morbidteaparty]

Be quite interesting to see the development of English football parallel baseball

I feel someone did a TL about a Welsh League forming the 1880s on the Old Country (maybe @Fletch?) which could be interesting to revisit

I'd personally be interested in doing one where football does better in the commonwealth countries where it didn't really gain a foothold until recently (primarily Australia and NZ)

 

[Fletch]

Be quite interesting to see the development of English football parallel baseball

I feel someone did a TL about a Welsh League forming the 1880s on the Old Country (maybe @Fletch?) which could be interesting to revisit

I'd personally be interested in doing one where football does better in the commonwealth countries where it didn't really gain a foothold until recently (primarily Australia and NZ)

I started it but quickly realised how broad the scope was and how difficult it would be so abandoned it. If I were to revisit the idea it would be far more recent with the FAW refusing consent for any Welsh club to continue in the English leagues when the League of Wales was founded. This was a particularly low time for Welsh football with Cardiff just getting out of the fourth tierand Swansea stuck in the third.

In terms of the formation of a British League, you just need to avoid the Scottish FA getting formed. If you manage to avoid this, Scottish clubs would retain their FA membership. The Irish FA was modelled on the SFA, so you'd quite possibly butterfly the IFA and the FAW too.

Scottish clubs stopped playing in the FA Cup due to a ban by the SFA, so without them, you wouldn't see Scottish clubs banned from the FA Cup (after 1886/87). In the 1883/84 and 1884/85 seasons, Queen's Park were FA Cup Finalists, defeated by Blackburn Rovers on both occasions. In 1886/87, Rangers reached the Semi-Finals.

I could easily see both clubs pushing hard for entry to the early seasons of the Football League.

This would of course have knock-on effects on Ireland and the future of the game across the British Isles.