Strategos' Risk
Active member
wtf and here I thought the White Rajahs of Sarawak were the last 20th century example of the trope
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British Governor and Rhodesian military chiefs arrest Ian Smith during UDI
- Thread starter Strategos' Risk
- Start date
wtf and here I thought the White Rajahs of Sarawak were the last 20th century example of the trope
- Location
- Coventry
Both countries there was much less disposession and forced removals in the colonial period, and much less, in Botswana case negligible, white resistance to decolonisation.
Rear echelon, safe house and some supply stuff.
Brickhill OTOH was an officer in ZIPRA, later a Commissar
Depending how you count Seychelles and Albert Rene
A white socialist Pan-Africanist. The Seychelles were... interesting.
I used to work with a woman whose parents hid people running from the police in their garage, although we parted ways before I got anymore details.
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Rene's born Seychellois, and his administration (longest in the country's history) ran on moderate socialist lines.wtf and here I thought the White Rajahs of Sarawak were the last 20th century example of the trope
He's credited with the countries substantial growth in standard of living.. ..and also with human rights abuses.
- Location
- Coventry
Rene's born Seychellois, and his administration (longest in the country's history) ran on moderate socialist lines.
He's credited with the countries substantial growth in standard of living.. ..and also with human rights abuses.
It's post-colonial Africa, the vast majority of cases you were lucky if you got the former with the latter!
Most prominently Jeremy Brickhill of ZIPRA.
Much less prominently, in Zambia, literally my parents
His nephew, Liam, is a very good cricket writer.
Ricardolindo
Well-known member
- Location
- Portugal
@Burton K Wheeler once said at the other place that the Rhodesian military's relative success was more because of the guerrilas' incompetence than its own merits.Even the Fireforce isn't really that impressive. It was a clever way of using extremely limited resources, but the Rhodesian gimmicks only worked as well as they did because of the severe weaknesses of their opponents. In terms of quantitative gear, a single Vietnamese infantry division was about as big as the entire Rhodesian army and better-equipped in many ways. (Trying to fly into battle in even early Vietnam with just a few OH-6 equivalents would be suicidal)
Talking about the qualitative skill gap is iffier both because every army varies internally and because there's an obvious and uncomfortable racial side to claiming the ineptitude of ZANLA and ZIPRA. But I have read evenhanded sources claiming them as lacking compared to other light infantry/irregular forces of the same time period (and that they were getting noticeably better by the war's end).
And of course, the Rhodesian security forces beyond the glamorous tip-of-the-spear types often had severe tactical issues of their own beyond just a very small and shrinking manpower pool.
Ricardolindo
Well-known member
- Location
- Portugal
A white socialist Pan-Africanist. The Seychelles were... interesting.
I used to work with a woman whose parents hid people running from the police in their garage, although we parted ways before I got anymore details.
Rene's born Seychellois, and his administration (longest in the country's history) ran on moderate socialist lines.
He's credited with the countries substantial growth in standard of living.. ..and also with human rights abuses.
According to his Wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France-Albert_René#Legacy, France-Albert René used to be widely regarded as a benevolent dictator but further evidence of his human rights abuses since 2018 has led to a reassesment of his record. On the other hand, René did allow a peaceful transition to democracyIt's post-colonial Africa, the vast majority of cases you were lucky if you got the former with the latter!
frustrated progressive
SLPing Through the Cracks
I submit the Clunies-Ross family of the Cocos-Keeling islands.wtf and here I thought the White Rajahs of Sarawak were the last 20th century example of the trope
Dunno how relevant it is, but the soon to be former Rhodesian African Rifles handily defeating ZIPRA elements in the 1981 Entumbane clashes is often cited as evidence that ZIPRA conventional offensives (or at least the first such one) would be quickly and decisively crushed.
Nah.Dunno how relevant it is, but the soon to be former Rhodesian African Rifles handily defeating ZIPRA elements in the 1981 Entumbane clashes is often cited as evidence that ZIPRA conventional offensives (or at least the first such one) would be quickly and decisively crushed.
The Entumbane days were rank and file rebelling without leadership or support. Masuku and Dabengwa went in unarmed to try and talk them down. They failed. The rest is tragedy
Death's Companion
General Ugg Apologist.
From what I've read Fireforce basically flew in, dropped an understrength platoon followed hours later by a company worth and just walked in a straight line for a few hours and would come across rebel encampments or positions which would then largely run away, get massacred or surrender because trained soldiers with surprise beat a bunch of yokels nine times out of ten.
Tbh it sounds like a similar story to the South Africans where they were trained pretty much to what the West would consider standard and fought what anyone would consider a rabble. As soon as the Cubans showed up with trained soldiers and something approaching combined arms suddenly the war became unwinnable.
I imagine its the same with the Rhodesians as they'd handly kick the crap out of their local enemies until someone with an actual army came to play and suddenly the limitations of a tiny manpower pool and and barely supported light infantry force would come home to bite. Maybe they'd win a few engagements, they only have to lose a few or not win cheaply enough for the whole house of cards to collapse.
Tbh I never really understood on AH.Com back in the day why people seemed to think that the Rhodesians or the British could have won Vietnam if only the Americans had turned to their expertise, given the stuff they did tactically was stuff the Americans already did and honestly seemed to do better in many cases whilst why the British success in Malaysia which was the go through example was basically getting a majority of the population on side in a race war against an unpopular minority. The contexts were massively different in terms of the quality and capability of the enemy.
Tbh it sounds like a similar story to the South Africans where they were trained pretty much to what the West would consider standard and fought what anyone would consider a rabble. As soon as the Cubans showed up with trained soldiers and something approaching combined arms suddenly the war became unwinnable.
I imagine its the same with the Rhodesians as they'd handly kick the crap out of their local enemies until someone with an actual army came to play and suddenly the limitations of a tiny manpower pool and and barely supported light infantry force would come home to bite. Maybe they'd win a few engagements, they only have to lose a few or not win cheaply enough for the whole house of cards to collapse.
Tbh I never really understood on AH.Com back in the day why people seemed to think that the Rhodesians or the British could have won Vietnam if only the Americans had turned to their expertise, given the stuff they did tactically was stuff the Americans already did and honestly seemed to do better in many cases whilst why the British success in Malaysia which was the go through example was basically getting a majority of the population on side in a race war against an unpopular minority. The contexts were massively different in terms of the quality and capability of the enemy.
I imagine its the same with the Rhodesians as they'd handly kick the crap out of their local enemies until someone with an actual army came to play and suddenly the limitations of a tiny manpower pool and and barely supported light infantry force would come home to bite. Maybe they'd win a few engagements, they only have to lose a few or not win cheaply enough for the whole house of cards to collapse.
The Rhodesians have to win every battle, while their opponents only have to win once. Even if they're more likely to win decisively, if their opponents have more endurance (they do), then...
Tbh I never really understood on AH.Com back in the day why people seemed to think that the Rhodesians or the British could have won Vietnam if only the Americans had turned to their expertise, given the stuff they did tactically was stuff the Americans already did and honestly seemed to do better in many cases
British snobbery mixed with understandable one-upmanship, IMHO. (And the idea of the Rhodesians in particular winning anything given how they lost the countryside so comparably quickly in their own country against a divided opposition with far less external support than other eastern clients got is laughable.)
Not an entirely fair comparison - South Vietnam had, I'm fairly sure, more than 5% of the population supporting them.British snobbery mixed with understandable one-upmanship, IMHO. (And the idea of the Rhodesians in particular winning anything given how they lost the countryside so comparably quickly in their own country against a divided opposition with far less external support than other eastern clients got is laughable.)
I imagine its the same with the Rhodesians as they'd handly kick the crap out of their local enemies until someone with an actual army came to play and suddenly the limitations of a tiny manpower pool and and barely supported light infantry force would come home to bite.
Except they'd lost control of a good slice of the countryside. Giving up territory because you can't defend it is still losing to your enemy, so their limitations were well biting.
The Rhodesians have to win every battle, while their opponents only have to win once.
More a case of gradually wearing down the Rhodesians' capacity to put men into multiple areas of territory.
And the idea of the Rhodesians in particular winning anything given how they lost the countryside so comparably quickly in their own country against a divided opposition with far less external support than other eastern clients got is laughable.
Quite
Strategos' Risk
Active member
Tbh I never really understood on AH.Com back in the day why people seemed to think that the Rhodesians or the British could have won Vietnam if only the Americans had turned to their expertise, given the stuff they did tactically was stuff the Americans already did and honestly seemed to do better in many cases whilst why the British success in Malaysia which was the go through example was basically getting a majority of the population on side in a race war against an unpopular minority. The contexts were massively different in terms of the quality and capability of the enemy.
Can I trouble you to read my fanfic
The Rhodieboo stuff is particularly infuriating, it’s a lot of tacticool fetishizing over a race war. The Selous Scouts literally stooped to dabbling in weapons of mass destruction.
So I ended up subverting it somewhat in this character profile for a fanfic project based on Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri, set in an alternate future where the colonial empires lasted longer. How’d I do with treating the subject?
Death's Companion
General Ugg Apologist.
Afraid not in all honesty. I've never played Alpha Centauri nor am I super interested in Rhodesia so reading a fic set in one about bashing the other just is a bit too much of a reach. Sorry.Can I trouble you to read my fanfic