This one comes down to the fact that an episode of Power Rangers, the show implicitly and sometimes explicitly set in California, saying Angel Grove the obvious LA stand-in was founded by British redcoats. (Because they could film at a 'colonial life' park in Australia and assumed kids wouldn't ever go "but wasn't California--?") So that has me curious about whether this is doable. There was a brief Russian colony in the 19th century, but is there any possible way on Earth to have a British colony in California that survives long enough that families in 1990s USA could trace their ancestors back to it?
-
Hi Guest!
The costs of running this forum are covered by Sea Lion Press. If you'd like to help support the company and the forum, visit patreon.com/sealionpress
British California?
- Thread starter Charles EP M.
- Start date
- Pronouns
- he/him
Drake landed there and claimed it as new albion in the mid 16th century. But the problem with following that up is the british had no existing colonies so would have had to supply it from the uk via the pacific. Which is impossible.
Maybe if he manages to take panama, but you're still left it being mad to prioritise california over the much closer virginia.
The best bet seems to be as an alternative australia post revolution. Maybe Cook read a book on Drake and got nostalgic, but you run into the problem that by that point there are actual spanish on the ground.
Stop the Spanish from going North thanks to more succesful pueblo revolts. Get New Albion to be more of a thing in english memory. Get some 18th century admiral to suggest it as a penal colony. Then when manifest destiny happens, theres a penal revolt against the british, a new state and then power rangers.
Albion County, California, where all the cities have aggressively Anglophonic names
- Location
- NYC (né Falkirk)
- Pronouns
- he/him
For a looser definition of "British California", the path I set California on in How the West Was Lost would see them gain independence from Mexico with support from the UK. They'd remain independent but would become akin to Argentina during the latter 19th century with the UK becoming the main source of investment in the country and the leading buyer of Californian raw materials.
With the prospect of either US or Mexican attempts to conquer all or part of their territory its a relationship the Californio ruling classes are happy to accept provided they remain in power, but the UK becomes the leading Anglo cultural influence in the nation. Think of a halfway point between OTL Argentina and OTL Australia; if they still play rugby or cricket in the TL can expect California to have national teams in high regard internationally. California would also be a destination for Indian indentured labour, so could expect a far larger South Asian community in this California compared with OTL.
With the prospect of either US or Mexican attempts to conquer all or part of their territory its a relationship the Californio ruling classes are happy to accept provided they remain in power, but the UK becomes the leading Anglo cultural influence in the nation. Think of a halfway point between OTL Argentina and OTL Australia; if they still play rugby or cricket in the TL can expect California to have national teams in high regard internationally. California would also be a destination for Indian indentured labour, so could expect a far larger South Asian community in this California compared with OTL.
Ricardolindo
Well-known member
- Location
- Portugal
The easiest scenario for a British California is Henry Clay winning in 1844 and there being no Mexican-American War. The Californios would probably have broken California off from Mexico and turned it into a British colony.
Jackson Lennock
Well-known member
The first Spanish exploration party didn't make it to San Francisco Bay until 1769 and Presidio San Francisco wasn't set up until 1776. Monterey wasn't established until 1770. Los Angeles wasn't established until 1781. San Diego was first claimed by Spain in 1542, but it wasn't permanently settled until 1769.
After the American Revolution, the British could argue that New Albion comprises everything north of San Francisco Bay and avoid having to butt heads with the Spaniards on the ground as far north as San Francisco. The Spanish didn't give the Russians trouble at Fort Ross. Once the British are established in Northern California, Southern California could be gotten fairly easily via cooperation with the Californios.
After the American Revolution, the British could argue that New Albion comprises everything north of San Francisco Bay and avoid having to butt heads with the Spaniards on the ground as far north as San Francisco. The Spanish didn't give the Russians trouble at Fort Ross. Once the British are established in Northern California, Southern California could be gotten fairly easily via cooperation with the Californios.
IIRC the Mexican government proposed the idea of selling off Alta California to raise money to help pay off part of their national debt in the 1830s, going so far as to approach the British ambassador. The length of time it took for news to reach the UK and political changes meant it never happened.
Have the approach be made slightly earlier so that it goes through with Britain acquiring land similar to our timeline's California and Nevada. A deal is hammered out with the US that sees the purchase recognised and any claims to the Oregon country dropped to guarantee them ports on the Pacific. Needing access to their new territory it's British interests that approach Colombia about building the Panama Railroad, allowing large numbers of emigrants to make the journey.
Have the approach be made slightly earlier so that it goes through with Britain acquiring land similar to our timeline's California and Nevada. A deal is hammered out with the US that sees the purchase recognised and any claims to the Oregon country dropped to guarantee them ports on the Pacific. Needing access to their new territory it's British interests that approach Colombia about building the Panama Railroad, allowing large numbers of emigrants to make the journey.
Ricardolindo
Well-known member
- Location
- Portugal
Reviving this idea.
Jackson Lennock
Well-known member
Pio Pico was interested in being a British protectorate, due to concerns about the Americans gobbling up California. Plus there's the aforementioned 1830s consideration of selling off Alta California.
The Californios and (later) Mormons preferring the British to the United States seems plenty tenable.
Alta California along the Colorado until it reaches the 37th parallel, and then due north. The British initially purchased the whole of Alta California, but opted to cede large portions to the Americans in exchange for them accepting a British Oregon. Notably, this included the "San Diego strip" which granted the Americans a port on the pacific. The Americans, lobbying hard, also secured an adjustment of the Oregon border along the Rockies westward to the bitterroot range. The British also agreed to support the Americans in their border dispute over Texas, and to pressure Mexico to make a sale of other lands in the north.
The Americans and Mexicans settled the border dispute as follows. The Mexicans "sold" the Nueces strip, and the portions of Sonora and Chihuahua north of the Conchos and Yaqui Rivers. The Americans thus secured for themselves a sizable coastline, with significant ports at Guaymas and San Diego.
Mexico also agreed to recognize the American annexation of the Republic of Yucatan. The Caste War would become a major catalyst for the American Civil War.
Over time, the Yaqui River became jokingly referred to as the "Yankee River."
The Californios and (later) Mormons preferring the British to the United States seems plenty tenable.
Alta California along the Colorado until it reaches the 37th parallel, and then due north. The British initially purchased the whole of Alta California, but opted to cede large portions to the Americans in exchange for them accepting a British Oregon. Notably, this included the "San Diego strip" which granted the Americans a port on the pacific. The Americans, lobbying hard, also secured an adjustment of the Oregon border along the Rockies westward to the bitterroot range. The British also agreed to support the Americans in their border dispute over Texas, and to pressure Mexico to make a sale of other lands in the north.
The Americans and Mexicans settled the border dispute as follows. The Mexicans "sold" the Nueces strip, and the portions of Sonora and Chihuahua north of the Conchos and Yaqui Rivers. The Americans thus secured for themselves a sizable coastline, with significant ports at Guaymas and San Diego.
Mexico also agreed to recognize the American annexation of the Republic of Yucatan. The Caste War would become a major catalyst for the American Civil War.
Over time, the Yaqui River became jokingly referred to as the "Yankee River."
JesterBL
Gastronaut
- Location
- Flyover Country, USA
- Pronouns
- he/him
Really hard IMO for that large of a peaceful territory transfer to happen. Even the relatively small size of the Gadsden Purchase was enough to become a serious issue in Mexican politics.
A British California probably means a US that never gets to the Pacific, or does so via a major war.
EDIT: and it should be noted I do think the US could have gotten more from Mexico in the case of war.
A British California probably means a US that never gets to the Pacific, or does so via a major war.
EDIT: and it should be noted I do think the US could have gotten more from Mexico in the case of war.
I did a little tale on the founding of an independent California a few years ago. While it wasn't really the crux of the piece, I had Royal Navy assets in support during the signing of the treaties formalising independence, as a hint at British support via Palmerston.
It was a rather silly piece (deliberately so), so don't look for it to explain detailed complex manoeuvres in the diplomatic sphere.
It was a rather silly piece (deliberately so), so don't look for it to explain detailed complex manoeuvres in the diplomatic sphere.
Jackson Lennock
Well-known member
My guess is that the US just gobbles up more of Mexico. Guaymas is the best port to go for, but there's also Mazatlan further south.
Even on a site about alternate history, this is a sentence I never thought I'd see.
Jackson Lennock
Well-known member
This is another possibility. Without California or Oregon to gain, the war with Mexico ends up a much more expansionist endeavor.
It's also worth noting how late Spanish expansion north was. San Diego was claimed in 1542, but was not settled until 1769. Los Angeles was first reached overland in 1769 and settled in 1771. The Presidio of Monterrey was established in 1770, and San Francisco was founded in 1776. It would take very little for a few redcoats to pop up and insist that the Colorado River was the northernmost border of New Spain.
It's also worth noting how late Spanish expansion north was. San Diego was claimed in 1542, but was not settled until 1769. Los Angeles was first reached overland in 1769 and settled in 1771. The Presidio of Monterrey was established in 1770, and San Francisco was founded in 1776. It would take very little for a few redcoats to pop up and insist that the Colorado River was the northernmost border of New Spain.
- Location
- NYC (né Falkirk)
- Pronouns
- he/him
I'm not sold that any proposed UK control of California, or even taking an independent California as a protectorate, in the 1830s/40s leads to the UK and the US carving up Mexico from Tampico or Guaymas northward with all of Oregon Country going to the UK.
As I said in a similar discussion on a larger Mexican Cession, there are myriad domestic issues in the US at this time that would only be worsened with the acquisition of more territory that could in theory (and probably intended to) be turned over to slave power. Now, imagine a larger Mexican cession but coupled with territory that might be more amenable to Northern, free labour settlers being given over to perfidious Albion. Think even in the unlikely event this is what happens the most interesting thing to come from it might be driving towards a Northern secession.
Then there's Mexico, which will not be a passive victim of history at the whims of the UK and US ITTL any more than it was OTL. It won't be able to fight both Washington and London at once, but I don't see any scenario in which that situation occurs. It's dependent upon both the UK and the US being on the same page and a casus belli which will draw both of them into a war at the same time. Perhaps more likely is that any shooting war that develops between Mexico and either the UK or US results in the other offering up support to Mexico in exchange for favourable borders.
The situation in the territories under contention too was by no means monolithic. California has the Californios (with those in the north and those in the south having different priorities); other Mexicans who might be more inclined to Mexico itself than any combination of the UK, US or independent California; American settlers split between Northerners, Southerners and Mormons. Texas, still theoretically independent at this stage, was in negotiations with Mexico and UK after annexation efforts in the 1830s stalled. And Oregon Country is dotted with British and American forts and settlements all over the shop.
Can actually see the opposite situation, that disputes over California/Texas/Oregon lead into an all out multi-sided war in the 1840s, happening instead of UK/US divvying up the west. That itself is an interesting prospect from an alternate history perspective maybe worth its own dedicated discussion. Outcome from that to a "British" California might be any peace settlement where the independence of California is guaranteed under British "protection". The US would likely still get Texas in that outcome but it might be a far smaller Texas than what the US claimed OTL. I can see Mexico retaining more of their pre-war territory north of the OTL Guadalupe Hidalgo border. Oregon would still be split, though who gets the lion's share depends on the situation when the war ends - in that aspect could see the US being granted part of Alta California north of the 40th or 41st parallels in exchange for not pressing territorial claims on Vancouver island or even north of the Columbia River perhaps.
A lot more you could go into in such a conflict, such as conflicts that arise from it within the US (over slavery), British North America (the 1837 Rebellions and the Caroline affair are very recent events), and Mexico (conservatives vs. liberals). Could also speculate on the prospect of France and/or Spain getting involved (the Pastry War is another recent occurrence, and there were Cuban independence efforts in the 1820s and 30s even before US filibusters got involved).
As I said in a similar discussion on a larger Mexican Cession, there are myriad domestic issues in the US at this time that would only be worsened with the acquisition of more territory that could in theory (and probably intended to) be turned over to slave power. Now, imagine a larger Mexican cession but coupled with territory that might be more amenable to Northern, free labour settlers being given over to perfidious Albion. Think even in the unlikely event this is what happens the most interesting thing to come from it might be driving towards a Northern secession.
Then there's Mexico, which will not be a passive victim of history at the whims of the UK and US ITTL any more than it was OTL. It won't be able to fight both Washington and London at once, but I don't see any scenario in which that situation occurs. It's dependent upon both the UK and the US being on the same page and a casus belli which will draw both of them into a war at the same time. Perhaps more likely is that any shooting war that develops between Mexico and either the UK or US results in the other offering up support to Mexico in exchange for favourable borders.
The situation in the territories under contention too was by no means monolithic. California has the Californios (with those in the north and those in the south having different priorities); other Mexicans who might be more inclined to Mexico itself than any combination of the UK, US or independent California; American settlers split between Northerners, Southerners and Mormons. Texas, still theoretically independent at this stage, was in negotiations with Mexico and UK after annexation efforts in the 1830s stalled. And Oregon Country is dotted with British and American forts and settlements all over the shop.
Can actually see the opposite situation, that disputes over California/Texas/Oregon lead into an all out multi-sided war in the 1840s, happening instead of UK/US divvying up the west. That itself is an interesting prospect from an alternate history perspective maybe worth its own dedicated discussion. Outcome from that to a "British" California might be any peace settlement where the independence of California is guaranteed under British "protection". The US would likely still get Texas in that outcome but it might be a far smaller Texas than what the US claimed OTL. I can see Mexico retaining more of their pre-war territory north of the OTL Guadalupe Hidalgo border. Oregon would still be split, though who gets the lion's share depends on the situation when the war ends - in that aspect could see the US being granted part of Alta California north of the 40th or 41st parallels in exchange for not pressing territorial claims on Vancouver island or even north of the Columbia River perhaps.
A lot more you could go into in such a conflict, such as conflicts that arise from it within the US (over slavery), British North America (the 1837 Rebellions and the Caroline affair are very recent events), and Mexico (conservatives vs. liberals). Could also speculate on the prospect of France and/or Spain getting involved (the Pastry War is another recent occurrence, and there were Cuban independence efforts in the 1820s and 30s even before US filibusters got involved).
JesterBL
Gastronaut
- Location
- Flyover Country, USA
- Pronouns
- he/him
American claims to Oregon Country date back at least to Lewis & Clark- those wouldn't go away just because the British claim all the way to the Colorado.