Biaggi’s Second Opium Den

[Comrade Izaac]

As someone who is left leaning, I don't understand why I shouldn't be more mad at Cyberpunk 2077 LARPing as a socialist utopia then a capitalist hellhole that is quite clear about being a capitalist hellhole

u should be more mad at the capitalist hellhole that is clear about it because, as far as i understand, u are an American and therefore are represented by the United States politically and economically. there is literally no point in "being mad" about the PRC as an American because the only solution that u have demonstrated is allowing the country that u are a citizen of, a core imperial country and the global hegemon of capitalism, to engage in imperial military ventures to contain them.

 

[Radac]

A lot of AH writers have an aversion to just making up fictional people. Even when the PoD is so far back that person wouldnt be born realistically

dudes will make althist where the Angevin Empire survives and have George Bush exist

 

[Thebigguy]

u should be more mad at the capitalist hellhole that is clear about it because, as far as i understand, u are an American and therefore are represented by the United States politically and economically. there is literally no point in "being mad" about the PRC as an American because the only solution that u have demonstrated is allowing the country that u are a citizen of, a core imperial country and the global hegemon of capitalism, to engage in imperial military ventures to contain them.

By that logic, Americans have no right to be indignant about any atrocities or flawed systems of governance the world over so long as someone can parrot out an equal and opposite failure of the United States. It is one hundred percent valid to want change in both the Chinese and American regimes and to despise the crimes of both states. The only reason you could possible want to argue there is not point being mad at the PRC as Americans is if you're either an actual shill or so up your own ass with anti-Americanism as to have retroactively blamed every bad thing that has happened since 1900 on the Degenerate Yankees.

 

[Kerguelen]

By that logic, Americans have no right to be indignant about any atrocities or flawed systems of governance the world over so long as someone can parrot out an equal and opposite failure of the United States. It is one hundred percent valid to want change in both the Chinese and American regimes and to despise the crimes of both states. The only reason you could possible want to argue there is not point being mad at the PRC as Americans is if you're either an actual shill or so up your own ass with anti-Americanism as to have retroactively blamed every bad thing that has happened since 1900 on the Degenerate Yankees.

True, Americans deserve no rights in general

 

[gentleman biaggi]

i know the vivek ramaswamy “we’re all one race… the american race…” thing is bad cuz of the voting rights act or whatever but it’s so so so real

 

[gentleman biaggi]

u should be more mad at the capitalist hellhole that is clear about it because, as far as i understand, u are an American and therefore are represented by the United States politically and economically. there is literally no point in "being mad" about the PRC as an American because the only solution that u have demonstrated is allowing the country that u are a citizen of, a core imperial country and the global hegemon of capitalism, to engage in imperial military ventures to contain them.

why would you hate either? an alliance between the two states is literally a net positive for the world and promotion of world peace.

 

[Comrade Izaac]

By that logic, Americans have no right to be indignant about any atrocities or flawed systems of governance the world over so long as someone can parrot out an equal and opposite failure of the United States. It is one hundred percent valid to want change in both the Chinese and American regimes and to despise the crimes of both states. The only reason you could possible want to argue there is not point being mad at the PRC as Americans is if you're either an actual shill or so up your own ass with anti-Americanism as to have retroactively blamed every bad thing that has happened since 1900 on the Degenerate Yankees.

did u read a single thing i said

 

[Comrade Izaac]

By that logic, Americans have no right to be indignant about any atrocities or flawed systems of governance the world over so long as someone can parrot out an equal and opposite failure of the United States. It is one hundred percent valid to want change in both the Chinese and American regimes and to despise the crimes of both states. The only reason you could possible want to argue there is not point being mad at the PRC as Americans is if you're either an actual shill or so up your own ass with anti-Americanism as to have retroactively blamed every bad thing that has happened since 1900 on the Degenerate Yankees.

tell me, what exactly is your plan for achieving "change in the regime" of the PRC outside of imperial military action on behalf of the world's most crucial imperial power?

 

[I Saw A Red Sky]

By that logic, Americans have no right to be indignant about any atrocities or flawed systems of governance the world over so long as someone can parrot out an equal and opposite failure of the United States.

Yes.

 

[gentleman biaggi]

scratch someone who is anti china and an anti american will bleed

 

[Comrade Izaac]

Yes.

i was waiting for someone to point this out and furthermore, the better question is how the fuck exactly do Americans who "have a problem" with the abject amorality of other states or their systems of governance purpose doing anything about it outside of American military action, which anybody of the even vague centre-left should know is completely unacceptable. we have numerous recent examples of the United States using atrocities committed by other states as a casus beli and then invading and installing loyal puppet governments that brutally uphold the economic and social interests of a small pro-American minority, commiting numerous atrocities along the way. i have yet to hear one person provide an answer.

 

[Thebigguy]

i was waiting for someone to point this out and furthermore, the better question is how the fuck exactly do Americans who "have a problem" with the abject amorality of other states or their systems of governance purpose doing anything about it outside of American military action, which anybody of the even vague centre-left should know is completely unacceptable. we have numerous recent examples of the United States using atrocities committed by other states as a casus beli and then invading and installing loyal puppet governments that brutally uphold the economic and social interests of a small pro-American minority, commiting numerous atrocities along the way. i have yet to hear one person provide an answer.

Alright, but ignoring the "what should we do about it" of it all, which is a bigger question. How could you possibly be opposed to the basic premise of "the PRC is a morally reprehensible regime that has done some not-great things"? Like, I realize it can and has been used as a starting point to say "and therefore the CIA should be allowed to excecute the vice presidents of impoverished Southeast Asian nations with impunity" but on a basic level, why would the fact that western nation have committed atrocities just make the PRC being shitty go away? I appreciate the idea that anger should be focused on productive goals but why oppose the basic premise?

 

[theflyingmgoose]

By that logic, Americans have no right to be indignant about any atrocities or flawed systems of governance the world over so long as someone can parrot out an equal and opposite failure of the United States. It is one hundred percent valid to want change in both the Chinese and American regimes and to despise the crimes of both states. The only reason you could possible want to argue there is not point being mad at the PRC as Americans is if you're either an actual shill or so up your own ass with anti-Americanism as to have retroactively blamed every bad thing that has happened since 1900 on the Degenerate Yankees.

"Americans aren't allowed to criticize the Nazis for killing Jewish people because of Segregation/the Native American genocide"

 

[Thebigguy]

"Americans aren't allowed to criticize the Nazis for killing Jewish people because of Segregation/the Native American genocide"

I mean, Godwin, but yeah.
Sorry for turing your thread into a thing Biaggi.

 

[Comrade Izaac]

, but ignoring the "what should we do about it" of it all, which is a bigger question. How could you possibly be opposed to the basic premise of "the PRC is a morally reprehensible regime that has done some not-great things"

i don't disagree with that premise. i fucking hate the PRC and it's economic and social model. im also an American and fundamentally CANT DO SHIT to change the behavior of the Chinese Government in a way that would not a. completely fuck over the population of China and b. benefit imperial actors who i am fundamentally opposed to in my own country where i do in fact have a chance to affect matieral change.

"Americans aren't allowed to criticize the Nazis for killing Jewish people because of Segregation/the Native American genocide"

considering the fact that the Holocaust and Lebensraum was explicitly modeled on the American genocide of indigenous peoples in North America and that a large population in the United States actively supported the Nazis before we were officially at war with them, we really fucking can't ! the fact that the United States did something in the Second World War was purely a consequence of almost entirely matieral conditions, not any type of moral basis.

 

[theflyingmgoose]

considering the fact that the Holocaust and Lebensraum was explicitly modeled on the American genocide of indigenous peoples in North America and that a large population in the United States actively supported the Nazis before we were officially at war with them, we really fucking can't ! the fact that the United States did something in the Second World War was purely a consequence of almost entirely matieral conditions, not any type of moral basis.

As opposed to the Soviets, who (checks notes)...

 

[Comrade Izaac]

As opposed to the Soviets, who (checks notes)...

fuck them too!

 

[Thebigguy]

i don't disagree with that premise. i fucking hate the PRC and it's economic and social model. im also an American and fundamentally CANT DO SHIT to change the behavior of the Chinese Government in a way that would not a. completely fuck over the population of China and b. benefit imperial actors who i am fundamentally opposed to in my own country where i do in fact have a chance to affect matieral change.

Cool that's agreed then.

considering the fact that the Holocaust and Lebensraum was explicitly modeled on the American genocide of indigenous peoples in North America and that a large population in the United States actively supported the Nazis before we were officially at war with them, we really fucking can't ! the fact that the United States did something in the Second World War was purely a consequence of almost entirely matieral conditions, not any type of moral basis.

True enough, although the truth of the matter is that the continued not-totally-awfulness of a large portion of the world is kind of predicated on letting American voters maintain some level of moral superiority over less democratic regimes. I agree that in many ways there isn't much of a leg to stand on but I also feel that for lack of cleaner alternatives to support, leftists should continue the policy of parroting a more toned-down version of American exceptionalism in public to keep from being labeled as traitors while working to push the Overton window via a combination of portraying social progressivism as A Fun New Thing That All the Cool Middle Class Folks Are Doing. It has generally worked well and mostly avoids large scale backlashes.

 

[Radac]

Leftists should continue the policy of parroting a more toned-down version of American exceptionalism in public to keep from being labeled as traitors while working to push the Overton window via a combination of portraying social progressivism as A Fun New Thing That All the Cool Middle Class Folks Are Doing. It has generally worked well and mostly avoids large scale backlashes.

man idrk what to say here

 

[gentleman biaggi]

leftists (leftists don’t exist in capitalist countries silly goose) liberals should continue the policy of parroting…American exceptionalism in public

TRUE

while working to push the Overton window via a combination of portraying social progressivism as A Fun New Thing That All the Cool Middle Class Folks Are Doing. It has generally worked well and mostly avoids large scale backlashes.

yeah nah man what are you talking about