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Alternate History: P,Q,R
- Thread starter Gary Oswald
- Start date
I wonder if some of that might be due to a partial overlap between military AH and wargaming. I've noticed that when rivet counters speculate about counterfactual battles, they seem to take place on some imaginary board withere the armies show up fully formed like WH40K miniatures.And in AH you often see the same trend; unrealistic political happenings so that the rivets can get their work out. So the Trent Affair scandal between the UK and USA becomes a war so that we can test two militaries against each other in a wargame style and never mind that neither side had any actual motive to go to war and lots of reasons to back down.
The battles becomes hollow because there's no attempt to actually work out what they mean. There's no attempt to explore the social effects or politics, its just people shooting at each other.
We visited Hampton Court Palace recently and that makes it really clear how much drama comes from the whims of still-powerful monarchs: the fact Henry VIII was the backup son, the random picking of wives, the random chance of which foetus was which gender, Seymour buying it, Catherine Howard being around at the specific time, Parr bringing Mary and Liz back into the fold, one Danish princess going "ha ha no" about being courted because of Henry's rep, the clashes with the Pope. And that's just one guy. If Mary is born Barry, history gets massively altered.
- Location
- NYC (né Falkirk)
- Pronouns
- he/him
If Mary is born Barry, history gets massively altered.
Yes, many people would enjoy a Bloody Barry as a breakfast cocktail and children would scare each other by repeating Bloody Barry into a mirror five times with the lights off.
I wonder if some of that might be due to a partial overlap between military AH and wargaming. I've noticed that when rivet counters speculate about counterfactual battles, they seem to take place on some imaginary board withere the armies show up fully formed like WH40K miniatures.
That has been an issue, and there's an extra quirk where everything up to the big battle often must be as technically "accurate" down to the brand of boots as possible, which I think is squandering the potential of alternate history. In fairness I should point out that a lot of AH doesn't do this, and even the ones that do can be sympathized as just following the precedent of gameplay where such little details do matter.
I've softened on excessive rivet counting because A: In the grand scheme of things there isn't that much of it, and B: It's still outnumbered by the works that have dubious geopolitics and get even the most basic military details wrong.
napoleon IV
Sheer Animal Cunning of the Groundhog
- Location
- Washington, Douglass Commonwealth
- Pronouns
- he/him
The worst can be described as "rivet counting but the writer is innumerate."That has been an issue, and there's an extra quirk where everything up to the big battle often must be as technically "accurate" down to the brand of boots as possible, which I think is squandering the potential of alternate history. In fairness I should point out that a lot of AH doesn't do this, and even the ones that do can be sympathized as just following the precedent of gameplay where such little details do matter.
I've softened on excessive rivet counting because A: In the grand scheme of things there isn't that much of it, and B: It's still outnumbered by the works that have dubious geopolitics and get even the most basic military details wrong.
- Location
- Arlington, Virginia
I love the caption of the image.
- Location
- North Alabama
Tom Clancy gets lots of praise for his diligent research into military hardware and how you they could realistically evolve and be used. But then he puts those weapons in a world where the geo-political realities are just nonsense. India tries to invade Australia, China invades Siberia, two majority Castilian areas of Spain break out into ethnic strife against each others.
Okay, I recognize the latter two (having read one of them for my sins and knowing the other by reputation, at least). I somehow India trying to invade Australia! I assume that’s in one of the spin-off novels with Clancy’s name in big letters but written by someone else?
- Pronouns
- he/him
Okay, I recognize the latter two (having read one of them for my sins and knowing the other by reputation, at least). I somehow India trying to invade Australia! I assume that’s in one of the spin-off novels with Clancy’s name in big letters but written by someone else?
No that's also in The Bear and the Dragon, the main plot is the Chinese invasion of Siberia which ends with russia joining nato, a brief bit of nuclear war and then another chinese revolution and China standing down.
But in the last three chapters President Ryan realises that he needs to be more proactive and orders a flyby of the indian fleet to make sure they don't try anything and we get a throwaway reference to the idea that if China had successfully taken Russia, the Indians were hoping this would open the door to let them try their pet invasion, which was Australia.
It's a weird book.
the Indians were hoping this would open the door to let them try their pet invasion, which was Australia.
Was he confusing India with Indonesia?? That's at least nearer and has had clashes
- Location
- Over the rainbow
No, India, China and someone else (Iran? Japan? Can't remember) had worked out a deal where they were going to start carving up the world between them. India was going to annex Sri Lanka as a stepping stone to conquering Australia, the big, empty continent full of all the natural resources they would need. China was going to conquer Siberia.Was he confusing India with Indonesia?? That's at least nearer and has had clashes
Even when my much younger self first read that, it was with the realisation that Clancy hadn't so much jumped the shark as carved a shark fin in the moon and then sent a rocket around it.
...but China's nearer Oz than India!
- Location
- NYC (né Falkirk)
- Pronouns
- he/him
...but China's nearer Oz than India!
As the crow flies, yes, but all those islands in between make it a longer journey.
napoleon IV
Sheer Animal Cunning of the Groundhog
- Location
- Washington, Douglass Commonwealth
- Pronouns
- he/him
The worst part about rivet counting is when rivet counters end up fighting with each other. When that happens you get 300-page threads that are 90% dudes arguing tiny details of weapons specs, not even important stuff but things like which tank has a better interior paint job. Admittedly this isn't really a problem with published AH since there are no threads, but it's the bane of anyone who has ever wanted to discuss American Civil War AH.
- Location
- North Alabama
No that's also in The Bear and the Dragon, the main plot is the Chinese invasion of Siberia which ends with russia joining nato, a brief bit of nuclear war and then another chinese revolution and China standing down.
But in the last three chapters President Ryan realises that he needs to be more proactive and orders a flyby of the indian fleet to make sure they don't try anything and we get a throwaway reference to the idea that if China had successfully taken Russia, the Indians were hoping this would open the door to let them try their pet invasion, which was Australia.
It's a weird book.
I know I read the book half a lifetime ago but bloody hell how did I forget THAT was a plot point?!?!
Max Sinister
Well-known member
- Location
- The Chaos Timeline
"but who would the HMS Hood marry?" Haven't read that joke so far, but found it funny.
- Location
- Over the rainbow
The bit about India may have actually been in its predecessor Executive Orders rather than the Bear and the Dragon. It's long enough ago that I can't remember which.I know I read the book half a lifetime ago but bloody hell how did I forget THAT was a plot point?!?!
Ballistics, especially for small arms. All these people screaming at each other about whether .303, .276, 6.5mm or 7.6mm is better. Never gets anywhere; nobody ever change their mind. Just goes round and round in excessive detail.The worst part about rivet counting is when rivet counters end up fighting with each other. When that happens you get 300-page threads that are 90% dudes arguing tiny details of weapons specs, not even important stuff but things like which tank has a better interior paint job. Admittedly this isn't really a problem with published AH since there are no threads, but it's the bane of anyone who has ever wanted to discuss American Civil War AH.
The worst can be described as "rivet counting but the writer is innumerate."
Oh yeah. Copying the style of past rivet-counts without the substance (ie, the truly knowledgeable parts) doesn't make for good.... anything. A lesser but still related trope is the "partially blind rivet count", where lots of one factor is debated and analyzed constantly, but another (big!) factor is just shrugged off.
Like during the old conventional WW3 boomlet way back when, it was lots of arguments over minor unit deployments and equipment, but any reference to the Soviets was done entirely with pre-1991 western sources.