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Do you still think that Portugal should have kept it's African Colonies?
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Alternate History General Discussion
- Thread starter Elektronaut
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Only the Anglo-Soviet forces can battle the Jacobin Reactionary Spartcist Menace.
Ricardolindo
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- Portugal
You are changing subjects here. I was talking about pre-modern empires, which obviously doesn't include the Portuguese Empire.
Regardless, a year ago, I only talked about Cabo Verde and São Tomé and Príncipe, and I will now clarify my current views, which have changed somewhat. I wish Portugal had integrated Cabo Verde like it did the Azores and Madeira. Indeed, since the times of the Marquês de Saldanha in the 19th century, Cabo Verdean elites advocated for Cabo Verde to be given the same status as the Azores and Madeira. Unfortunately, Portugal never did it. That along with multiple famines as late as the 1940s alienated the Cabo Verdeans.
I view not integrating Cabo Verde as one of Portugal's biggest failures.
One of my dumber ideas I might still do (maybe) is Romania under Nicolae Iorga and the Sămătorists-anti industrial traditional ultra conservatism that is so obsessed with peasants that it destroys urban communities for the benefits of the rural ones.
The Peasant’s Militia is the name of the secret police and their uniforms are like the Morris Men but with the flag as a banderole. Iorga’s Romania is a pariah state like 19th Century Paraguay-no one wants to lead with it,not even the Soviets who prefer not even sending spies there. Transylvania is independent and run by Maniu,who reluctantly prefers not being a Romanian citizen than be under the rule of Iorga. Outside of Bucharest,the entire country is just stuck in the middle ages and this time is a direct choice.
Still believe that the Spartacists taking over Germany is one of the biggest missed opportunities for humanity.
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I’m in two minds on the Spartacists, like on one hand, you get a possible alternative Communist system to what the Soviet Union produced, that is more decentralised, based on Liebknecht ideas etc.
On the other hand, you could get like essentially one party social democratic state in the long run, just depends on who wins out in the end.
Death's Companion
General Ugg Apologist.
I feel that in such circumstances they either get slaughtered or they get brutal enough to win a civil war in which case see USSR or the PRC.
Avian Overlord
Mystical American Freedom Bird
Ah yes, a communist Germany. How could we possibly know what that would look like.
I don’t get why you’d think they’d end up social democratic in the long run? They were arguably to the left of the Bolsheviks.
Circumstances in Germany weren’t the same as in Russia. A communist takeover of Germany would be much more gradual, and less violent, than what happened in Russia.
Because a puppet state with barely any legitimacy would be the same as an homegrown revolutionary government?
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I wouldn’t particularly compare a Spartcist Germany to Eastern Germany, whilst both would indeed emerge from the aftermath of Wars, one was created as a buffer state, staffed with Stalinists, Purge Survivors and the occasional former Nazi and had it’s industry stripped bare by the occupying Soviets.
The Spartcists even if there is the possibility of it shifting to an authoritarian regime, would still be a very different beast to East Germany.
Oh they were, but I was remembering that several influential Spartcists eventually drifted towards being supporters of the ‘Right Opposition’ or were incredibly friendly with the ‘Austro-Marxist’ factions.
Now I know they aren’t exactly Social Democrats, but there is a possibility of the Spartcists winning the revolution but in time losing power to more moderate figures over time.
There was a lot of faction-shifting around the late 20s, and a lot of it was just to stop from getting whacked by Stalin and his guys.
I’m sure the SPD would be around in some capacity in a Spartacist Germany (unless they go full Noske or the KPD has their own Night of the Long Knives moment).
Also a one party social democracy would arguably still be better than what we got OTL, but that’s besides the point.
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- Visiting BWBs.
I would also add to the mix the fact that from the moment the shooting started right up until the end, the German forces were notorious (and, indeed, boasted about the fact) for not taking prisoners of non-white Entente soldiers. Indians, Senegalese, African Americans, Algerians, and so on were simply killed out of hand. This was, it has to be pointed out, policy, and not the actions of "a few bad apples". For all that the British and French weren't entirely progressive with regard to racism, the German forces were considerably worse. Indeed, for all that the Kaiserboos might deny it, the early roots of Nazi race theories can be seen during this period.
Edit: Given the rather large number of Kaiserboos on The Other Place, and their vehemence with regard to the saintliness of the German forces in WWI, I don't place too high a regard on what gets said on The Other Place. There's far more rhetoric than research there.
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True. There’s also the classic ‘well the revolution failed, so let me ponder other ways we can achieve it’ stuff going on as well (like the couple of Spartcists who slowly gravitated towards SDP over time).
For your first point, yeah, I can also see like the Catholic Workers Association folks and Bourgeois Progressive types having political associations within the eventual structure.
To your second point, yeah, like it’s not great but better than otl.
Someone really needs to do a book on that.
"That's what empires do and it was our turn," to quote a character in Crossed
The opposite of this is equally horrifying-I have often maintained that one of the reasons the Balkans are the way they are is because they’re resentful of the fact that they never got to do imperialism like they often fantasied and thus have a massive inferiority and superiority complex at the same time.
Romania and Bulgaria’s near war over literal clay miles that appeared briefly after the Danube dried up a bit between 1900-1901 is an example of this-there was no reason for it to escalate the way it did other than both countries wanting to do an imperialism and having to settle for clay.
Or the Romanian-Bulgarian War of 1912-1913-Romania only annexed Cadrilater because of this,becoming drunk on victory and deluding itself that it was now THE RULER OF THE BALKANS and thus belonged to the Big Boys Club,which was one of the main reasons why it lost WW1 initially. As well as why Bulgarian troops started pillaging everything to Mackensen’s horror and annoyance.
By the end of 1918,Mackensen never wanted to ever set foot near the Balkans. They just didn’t behave.
Ricardolindo
Well-known member
- Location
- Portugal
What is Crossed?
ChrisNuttall
Well-known member
First, don't get diverted into the Balkans. Ideally, sit on Musso or bluntly tell him the Germans will not bail him out if he invades Greece. Instead, launch Barbarossa a few weeks earlier (as planned) and drive on Moscow. It won't break the USSR completely, but it will knock the Russians back hard and give the Germans a chance to regroup before the next campaign.
Second, treat the Eastern Europeans with a little human decency. It won't take much to get them on Germany's side.
Third, don't declare war on the United States.
Of course, these all require Hitler to be the long-term planner he wasn't in OTL ... (thank god)
Chris
- Location
- Coventry
Of course the second part requires Hitler to not be Hitler.
He didn't see the Invasion of the Soviet Union as an Interstate war. He saw it as a race war.
As for the third, he thought that Germany and the USA were already at war.
He didn't see the Invasion of the Soviet Union as an Interstate war. He saw it as a race war.
As for the third, he thought that Germany and the USA were already at war.