This intrigues me: have you ever read anything by Robin Ramsay about Wilson, Operation Clockwork Orange, Colin Wallace, etc.?
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Alternate History General Discussion
- Thread starter Elektronaut
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One way of getting a stronger SNP position in the early 1980s would be a leak of the McCrone Report, which was an internal Scottish Office memo from 1974 detailing how an independent Scotland would be economically prosperous due to North Sea Oil. OTL it was released in 2005 after oil production had declined.
Seconded on the 1974 elections, if you look at the margin in Scottish seats the SNP could have taken a lot more.
Seconded on the 1974 elections, if you look at the margin in Scottish seats the SNP could have taken a lot more.
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Henry Kissinger turning 100 instead of burning in hell does have me thinking about a scenario where HHH wins in 1968 and he does most of the same shit since Humphrey was going to name him National Security Advisor too.
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In fairness, that may just mean that the devil isn’t all that keen for Kissinger to join him.
Looking back at my Green Bay Packers post, I like to think of them as a good analogy for how to make something "implausible" happen in AH. Having, say, some chunk of the Indian subcontinent (or whatever, location because of my next analogy) become and stay independent (OTL Bhutan? I guess) even if it's unlikely in OTL but is still explained in an acceptable way in the story itself is like the Packers.
Whereas something like you-know-what's Pakistani conquest of Gujarat is like an expansion team being placed in Milwaukee in the mid-1970s and having them win the Super Bowl in their very first season. And all of it just happening out of the blue.
Whereas something like you-know-what's Pakistani conquest of Gujarat is like an expansion team being placed in Milwaukee in the mid-1970s and having them win the Super Bowl in their very first season. And all of it just happening out of the blue.
I don't know if this has been shown anywhere else.
The Deutsches Historisches Museum has an exhibition on
Found via this Guardian article which includes some description of what is shown but merely to suggest what would be in a British version.
www.theguardian.com
The Deutsches Historisches Museum has an exhibition on
Found via this Guardian article which includes some description of what is shown but merely to suggest what would be in a British version.
What would Britain look like today if we’d chosen to follow the roads not taken? | Martin Kettle
An exhibition in Berlin explores 14 alternative histories for Germany. What a shame that we don’t do the same, says Guardian columnist Martin Kettle
www.theguardian.com
There is now a thread about this https://forum.sealionpress.co.uk/in...n-historical-museum-berlin.6046/#post-1276246I don't know if this has been shown anywhere else.
The Deutsches Historisches Museum has an exhibition on
Found via this Guardian article which includes some description of what is shown but merely to suggest what would be in a British version.
What would Britain look like today if we’d chosen to follow the roads not taken? | Martin Kettle
An exhibition in Berlin explores 14 alternative histories for Germany. What a shame that we don’t do the same, says Guardian columnist Martin Kettle
Not sure if it would change anything, but what if the pass to Maradona during the World Cup went a little bit more to the right and he actually did headbutt the ball into the net.
I guess if things still go the same way after, he still hits the goal of the century and wins the World Cup, he’d be a bit less controversial considering he didn’t have to pull any shady tricks to get past England.
I guess if things still go the same way after, he still hits the goal of the century and wins the World Cup, he’d be a bit less controversial considering he didn’t have to pull any shady tricks to get past England.
The concept of tipping points, lock-in, and other decision making models would be a useful one for alternate history discussions. You can't just show up with a history book or even as a modern analyst already knowing all the facts and hope to influence the course of events. We know that because it doesn't work in real life.
History is full of examples of people who knew that something was about to happen but were unable to do anything to change direction. There were months of military buildup prior to Russia's invasion of Ukraine but many were still skeptical that Russia would invade. There was a subreddit about the events going on in Wuhan well before they were discussed in the mainstream media, then they were discussed in the media, and people were still surprised. There were people warning that an energy crisis was going to occur prior to 1973 but even if they had been listened to it's not like the situation could have been resolved right then and there (the concept of lock-in is useful in particular for this one, but let's stick to one concept at a time).
So as an example of the tipping point model, imagine the course of history as something like the following illustration of tipping points in climate pathways (source). The actual thing being depicted doesn't matter, just the general concept as illustrated. You have more options further out from an event and then you get less options as you go down the line. Eventually you are being drug towards a certain outcome.
Another way to visualize the concept just using that illustration would be to view it as instead representing nuclear proliferation, with the left side representing disarmament, the middle side representing a Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty status quo, and the right representing the current pathway which is headed more towards greater proliferation (the bottom right representing full scale global nuclear war).
Suppose you're in one of those settings in which a nuclear war is about to breakout between the major powers but you successfully stop the crisis. That's great, but the wider conditions that led to that much tension and proliferation are likely still there. You haven't derailed the pathway, you've just moved a bit towards the left, and it's quite possible you'll still roll down into global nuclear war. You would need some dramatic event such as Superman grabbing everyone's nuclear weapons and throwing them into the Sun and pledging to vaporize anyone working on a new one to make a dramatic shift from near nuclear war to global disarmament.
History is full of examples of people who knew that something was about to happen but were unable to do anything to change direction. There were months of military buildup prior to Russia's invasion of Ukraine but many were still skeptical that Russia would invade. There was a subreddit about the events going on in Wuhan well before they were discussed in the mainstream media, then they were discussed in the media, and people were still surprised. There were people warning that an energy crisis was going to occur prior to 1973 but even if they had been listened to it's not like the situation could have been resolved right then and there (the concept of lock-in is useful in particular for this one, but let's stick to one concept at a time).
So as an example of the tipping point model, imagine the course of history as something like the following illustration of tipping points in climate pathways (source). The actual thing being depicted doesn't matter, just the general concept as illustrated. You have more options further out from an event and then you get less options as you go down the line. Eventually you are being drug towards a certain outcome.
Another way to visualize the concept just using that illustration would be to view it as instead representing nuclear proliferation, with the left side representing disarmament, the middle side representing a Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty status quo, and the right representing the current pathway which is headed more towards greater proliferation (the bottom right representing full scale global nuclear war).
Suppose you're in one of those settings in which a nuclear war is about to breakout between the major powers but you successfully stop the crisis. That's great, but the wider conditions that led to that much tension and proliferation are likely still there. You haven't derailed the pathway, you've just moved a bit towards the left, and it's quite possible you'll still roll down into global nuclear war. You would need some dramatic event such as Superman grabbing everyone's nuclear weapons and throwing them into the Sun and pledging to vaporize anyone working on a new one to make a dramatic shift from near nuclear war to global disarmament.
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Would love if that page ever realized the AH it has to ride in and knee-jerk defend is also very dumb for once.
I Saw A Red Sky
He killed my ma, he killed my pa, but 🤓
- Location
- Arlington, Virginia
This feels relevant to a lot of military AH.
I Saw A Red Sky
He killed my ma, he killed my pa, but 🤓
This feels relevant to a lot of military AH.
This is some grade A evopsychowoo.
- Location
- UK
This feels relevant to a lot of military AH.
Perhaps not, but maybe it should be. Neither my father nor my uncle - who both went through some harrowing times in WW2 - talked much, but what I did glean from them was that the relationships they formed in combat, were among the closest and most intense of their lives.
Thing is, in historical fiction (yes I'm aware the post is talking about nonfiction), 97% of the time it is. Larry Bond-type big picture, big detail war stories are a tiny minority. For most of the others, even the cheapest cheap thrillers, you have characters and relationships. There are tons of war novels written by and for women, and while they're not exactly Wolfenstein 3D, you can still call them "war novels" without controversy.
As for the article as a whole, my response is "so what?". People have different tastes, which isn't surprising.
As for the article as a whole, my response is "so what?". People have different tastes, which isn't surprising.
I think Musgrave's correct on the three big things: this is often about close-knit teams of people, it's stuff we have a vague idea about, and in some of these wars it's This Could've Happened To YOU (and maybe did to people in your family), which is also the appeal of lots of thrillers and horror stories. This also will be half the appeal of a lot of war fiction. The other big appeal, which he leaves out, is warfare is often exciting to read about in the comfort of your own peacetime home because stuff go boooooom and people do extraordinary feats of physical bravery and big changes happen and so on.
The problem is when he goes into the weeds of gender theories and we get "writing about war is not writing about intimate relationships" - first off, it absolutely is in fiction and memoirs, and it comes up in a lot of history books too in my experience - or trying to explain women not less prevelant consumers with "women have better relationships in reality". Which, nah. That's a line that manages to insult men by cringing 'women are better than us', insults women by cringing 'you're better than us', and insults women who do like war stuff because you've just accidentally implied they're the sucky women.
We sure it's not just simply that women have historically not been common in frontline combat so the big three factors have less of a draw because women aren't in them?
The problem is when he goes into the weeds of gender theories and we get "writing about war is not writing about intimate relationships" - first off, it absolutely is in fiction and memoirs, and it comes up in a lot of history books too in my experience - or trying to explain women not less prevelant consumers with "women have better relationships in reality". Which, nah. That's a line that manages to insult men by cringing 'women are better than us', insults women by cringing 'you're better than us', and insults women who do like war stuff because you've just accidentally implied they're the sucky women.
We sure it's not just simply that women have historically not been common in frontline combat so the big three factors have less of a draw because women aren't in them?
Random question: I've recently found this pretty good continuation of Robert Sobel's For Want of a Nail by SpanishSpy, and now I'm curious as to what others might exist out there; does anyone know of any links?
SultanArda
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I know whether asking this question is appropriate or not but...
Can I learn where to find the rest of EdT's excellent magnum opus, the Bloody Man?
I know that the last time a post was posted in the thread was seven years ago but I really liked reading it, and I am curious about the story's continuation.
I would accept a draft of the remaining chapter as well to read it.
Can I learn where to find the rest of EdT's excellent magnum opus, the Bloody Man?
I know that the last time a post was posted in the thread was seven years ago but I really liked reading it, and I am curious about the story's continuation.
I would accept a draft of the remaining chapter as well to read it.
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He didn't finish it and didn't post a draft. It wasn't one last chapter it was going to be a fair bit of content to go.