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Alternate History General Discussion

Apparently, around 2007, Blair wanted to invade Zimbabwe but was talked out of it due to the current unpopularity with Iraq.

Could make an interesting TL … 👀


The article is fairly thin, the main claim is about regime change in general, not a military option.

Mbeki alleged that the former British prime minister pressured him to join a "regime change scheme" as Zimbabwe plunged into a political and economic crisis in the early 2000s.

and then there's what TM is claiming Guthrie said about Blair, which is now third-hand.

I'm sure there were such discussions, but by as early as 2003 the British government didn't seem so keen. When the MDC had really big rolling mass action that they had planned, the so-called Final Push, it was called off at the last minute and replaced by a simple stay away after British embassy staff appealed to them MDC to avoid violent clashes.

So that's almost the opposite, the Final Push was probably the last non military attempt to remove Mugabe and MDC demoralized at British request. It is questionable whether MDC would have successfully kept rolling mass action going. I mean, there was pretty good organosation, but whether it would have continued when the army started shooting is another matter.

Seems to predate 2007 (that's when Guthrie's quote is from), I'd guess from article this - if true - was something earlier. Mugabe was big news in the early 2000s and pre-Iraq planning we'd have some capacity for it. Guthrie retired from Chief of the Defence Staff in mid-2001, 2000 or 2001 seems the right time for this, Blair riding high from Kosovo and Sierra Leone working

Not really a good idea at all, it'd be seen as Britain deposing an old rebel to save white farmers (and that was what got more play here than dead black Zimbabweans, I doubt that was the driver when Guthrie got asked about it) and South Africa helping Britain do the same. That's before, as Mbeki and the MDC say, "yeah and who would be in charge after?" People would keep getting killed over that question.

(Mbeki's wrong in Mugabe being "part of the solution", as he didn't help solve the problems he caused and finally got couped)

A British invasion of Zimbabwe staged from any other SADC country was a non starter, there's noone who would have been willing to provide a base for that. South Africa in particular has a longstanding foreign policy of non-alignment or neutrality between state actors, even in civil conflicts, and generally sees itself as lending support to negotiated solutions. See the internationally unpopular position taken on Russia Ukraine but also on the Civil wars in South Sudan and Ethiopia.

To get Britain invading, you'd need either Mozambique or Botswana happy to host this, which would require a strongly anti Mugabe president who was either slightly insane or uncaring about reaction from neighbours. I guess Botswana under Ian Khama is vaguely possible but even he wouldn't do it with South Africa, Namibia and Angola denying RAF airspace access...
 
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First time posting here, and I wanted to post about the Lebensraum idea. I know most of you guys probably know this, but I kinda wanted to jot some stuff down.

I know the origin of the idea goes way back to the eastern movement of Germans way back then, but was popularized by German geopolitical thinkers around the 19the century, based partly on Manifest destiny.

And what I learned was how popular it was in Germany. Many of the Imperial Elite fully bought into it, and the movement was fully tied into with Swedish Eugenicists and German popular sentiment about having a large empire. Even people like Engels bought into a form of this ideology. It was apparently really extensive back then. Hitler's actions were merely a conclusion to century of unsavory ideas, like his hatred of the disabled, the gays, Jewish and Roma people.

In that way, it really is a bloody miracle that this idea was tampered down post ww2. There definitely is an alternate timeline close to us where this kind of sentiment is still broadly popular in Germany.
 
A British invasion of Zimbabwe staged from any other SADC country was a non starter, there's noone who would have been willing to provide a base for that. South Africa in particular has a longstanding foreign policy of non-alignment or neutrality between state actors, even in civil conflicts, and generally sees itself as lending support to negotiated solutions. See the internationally unpopular position taken on Russia Ukraine but also on the Civil wars in South Sudan and Ethiopia.
How's Lesotho seen in this context out of curiosity?
 
How's Lesotho seen in this context out of curiosity?
Ok got me there.

Pretoria's position toward Lesotho is largely inconsistent with that, because it is

Panama.

Lesotho supplies a credible portion of Gauteng's drinking water, and a government hostile to Pretoria, or major instability isn't tolerated. So one of the first sites secured during the 98 military intervention was the Khatse Dam construction site.

That said, both 98 and 2014 were multilateral interventions through SADC. The 2014 intervention was a policing action, in the sense that it was police officers who were sent to keep the peace, not soldiers
 
Ok got me there.

Pretoria's position toward Lesotho is largely inconsistent with that, because it is

Panama.

Lesotho supplies a credible portion of Gauteng's drinking water, and a government hostile to Pretoria, or major instability isn't tolerated. So one of the first sites secured during the 98 military intervention was the Khatse Dam construction site.

That said, both 98 and 2014 were multilateral interventions through SADC. The 2014 intervention was a policing action, in the sense that it was police officers who were sent to keep the peace, not soldiers
Ah I see
 
I wouldn't really say it's 'fanfiction' (though certainly often written by amateurs, until the point they publish it and they uh stops being amateurs, a lot of it isn't 'derivative work' in the traditional sense), more that I would just say it's an offshoot of both historical fiction and spec-fic/sci-fi in an overlapping area of interests
 
A very interesting subject but very complicated to imagine, as the very person of Robespierre is still the subject of enormous historical debates but above all as a controversial figure, and either hated or revered in public opinion (I am speaking here from the point of French view). I will take as a reference the work of the historian Jean-Clément Martin, the "best" current specialist in the Revolution and the Counter-Revolution - I specify that I have read only one of his works and I have mainly listened his web conferences.

In his book, La Terreur. Vérités et légendes, the historian indulges in the game of uchronia with a chapter entitled: "If Robespierre is the winner of Thermidor" - in this, Martin outlines a possible counter-attack by Robespierre, who enjoyed the support of the half of Paris, sans-culottes and the revolutionary courts of the capital faced with a paradoxical but real opposition from revolutionary radicals and moderates who have in common to be targeted by the Incoruptible in his speech made on 8 Thermidor, against " the terror system" and its promoters. All the purpose of the author before in the previous chapters is to demonstrate that the general conception of the Terror is false (I will not go back on it, read the book or listen to the author if you are French-speaking) and he brings to light the image of a Terror constructed after the fall of Robespierre and against Robespierre by Tallien.

Martin in the chapter on Robespierre's seizure of power names those who would have passed on the scaffold: there is Tallien, Fouché, Carrier, Bourdon, then Billaud-Varenne and Collot, and certainly Cambon and Carnot. Then, the author continues by imagining that the sans-culottes left, designated as "terrotist", would have been designated responsible for the exactions that the executions of March 1794, in particular that of Jacques-René Hebert, had already sanctioned. The denunciation made by Grégoire against the "vandals" could have been used. And an formal adhesion of the provinces to the counter-coup of Robespierre, then Martin continues by doing a little foresight speaking of a loss of confidence of the big financiers in the regime, the same for the military because they would lose the profits of a war of conquest, which Robespierre was against. And announces a greater control of the state between a muzzled revolutionary left and a right unable to rise; in short, an openly assumed dictatorship of Robespierre. Finally Martin ends the chapter by returning precisely to the subject of his book, and maintains that Robespierre would have accused his enemies - as they accused MR of having led the "Terror" - of having led the "Vendalisation" of France.

The author is doing an exercise here that serves the purpose of his book on the Terror, and does not seek to go further into the uchronia but the leads given seem interesting to me because a situation and a trajectory taken by the revolution at this time can to be continued - Jean-Clément Martin at the very beginning of this chapter says that the victory of the Robespierrists would not fundamentally change the line taken by the Thermidorians; that of a reduction in violence within the general framework of a French victory in the war, because this geo-political context is crucial for understanding the political choices and alliances within the National Assembly.

I will here propose an extension of the possible victory of Robespierre; instead of post-Thermidorian anarchy and then the corruption of the Directory, France would be a revolutionary dictatorship around a government tightened around the Incorruptible and his supporters (Saint-Just, Hanriot, etc.), a kind of revolutionary Consulate. Surely, the conclusion of an external peace would be one of his priorities (although we must not forget the lack of confidence among the military, therefore the renewal of certain generals with Saint-Just as Minister of War and the advent of a Bonaparte thanks to his opinions as his relations with the brother of Robespierre). Then, an element will come into account and surely put aside Robespierre quickly aside, his state of health (some countenporains make the state of a rather sick Incorruptible), so he could not reach the year 1800. So eventually, a new power struggle would be brought about for the succession of the Incorruptible.
A pretty interesting discussion on what could have happened had Robespierre’s faction had triumphed over the Thermidorians over at AH.com. The basic idea is that it would have followed past patterns of purges, with Robespierre attacking his right and left, finally eliminating the remnants of the Hebertists, while also getting rid of Carnot and his enemies on the right. With their victory, a more leftist version of the Consulate would emerge, just as authoritarian, but more republican and less kind to the right.

Through this revolutionary dictatorship, we’d also see a general calming of violence as that was the trend that would have happened regardless of who triumphed. Additionally, we would also find Bonaparte rising a few years early as he was being supported by Robespierre’s brother, and his plans for attacking Italy would probably be approved in this scenario, potentially ending the War of the First Coalition years earlier than it was IOTL.
 
A nice read on the relation of an enduring idea within secret history (pre-Columbian contact across the North Atlantic) to early folklore studies and national mythbuilding.

 
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