• Hi Guest!

    The costs of running this forum are covered by Sea Lion Press. If you'd like to help support the company and the forum, visit patreon.com/sealionpress

Alternate History General Discussion

With the final Smash Bros Ultimate character revealed, I'm thinking of doing a piece on how the series shows the volatility of pop culture.

  • There have been multiple series propped up/supported by Smash (Fire Emblem is the most obvious)
  • Smash started as a Sakurai pet project and could very easily have never existed, with obvious butterflies from there.
 
Does anyone have any ideas on different scenarios for Haiti during the French Revolution? I've heard some experts say that there most likely would have been a reckoning even if there was no Napoleon whose reasons were more of a matter of reasserting his authority than prejudice or economic reasons (Though they probably did play a part in it).

So what exactly kind of non-Napoleon reckoning would have occurred? Would a surviving republican regime just try to replace Toussaint?
 
Does anyone have any ideas on different scenarios for Haiti during the French Revolution? I've heard some experts say that there most likely would have been a reckoning even if there was no Napoleon whose reasons were more of a matter of reasserting his authority than prejudice or economic reasons (Though they probably did play a part in it).

So what exactly kind of non-Napoleon reckoning would have occurred? Would a surviving republican regime just try to replace Toussaint?

Over to our own @Gary Oswald who might have some ideas
 
Does anyone have any ideas on different scenarios for Haiti during the French Revolution? I've heard some experts say that there most likely would have been a reckoning even if there was no Napoleon whose reasons were more of a matter of reasserting his authority than prejudice or economic reasons (Though they probably did play a part in it).

So what exactly kind of non-Napoleon reckoning would have occurred? Would a surviving republican regime just try to replace Toussaint?

"Que dans le parti que j'ai pris d'anéantir à Saint-Domingue le gouvernement des noirs, j'ai moins été guidé par des considérations de commerce et de finance que par la nécessite d'étouffer dans toutes les parties du monde toute espèce de germes d'inquiétude et de troubles" as Napoleon said to Talleyrand.

"That in the decision I have taken to annihilate the government of the blacks in Saint-Domingue, I was guided less by commercial considerations than by the necessity of smothering in all parts of the world any kind of seed of worry and trouble."

An attempt to replace Toussaint I think is possible so is an attempt to ask Toussaint to invade another part of the New World and him refusing because he needed his men at home but I'm also unconvinced Toussaint could remain in power if given another 5 years by France.

Toussaint being killed like Dessalines was strikes me as quite likely and then France has to come to terms with how unpopular the plantation system is on Haiti itself.
 
The reason why I tend to agree with a reckoning being inevitable is that on the one hand you have Haiti making less money than previously and French merchants demanding a bigger investment from the Island than they're getting and on the other the money being made in Haiti being only as high as it is thanks to an incredibly unpopular plantation system that everyone hated and were fighting armed rebellions against.

The pressure from France is to go one way, and the internal pressure is to go the other.

The specific break in 1801 can be mostly traced to Napoleon and Toussaint's personalities and can be easily avoided but the underlying problem that France didn't understand Haiti and thought the situation was much more rosy than it was is difficult to avoid. Napoleon's writing in exile that it was a mistake to backstab the Haitians because they were the best soldiers in the Western hemisphere and he threw them away comes from same blindness. They were but they were also needed to maintain power at home because Toussaint was ruling at gunpoint.
 
I’m not sure how much AARs count as alternate history, but by god do I love them. Reading someone narrate these absurd event in a semi-professional historian's tone is great, but some of my favorites like the fantastic Rome AARisen, is a damn good narrative story that makes you attached to these bands of Byzantine lunatics.
 
Last edited:
I’m not sure how much AARs count as alternate history, but by god do I love them.

A lot of the Kirov series being a de facto AAR/let's play of various wargames was actually better than I thought it would be. I think it's because AARs are actually a form of hard AH: Yes, the game's rules are almost never actually completely "plausible", but it is following an objective set of rules. There are worse things than a world that runs on game logic and that you know runs on game logic.
 
Not a gamer, so a bit confused. AAR is a narrative description of events in a game after the game has concluded? Is that the case?

After action report, yeah.

In places like the Something Awful forums, you would get people playing rare games and writing up everything they did (with screenshots) so other people could see that game. Some Japanese games only got an English version because of AARs attracting attention to the game.

With historical role playing games like the paradox games you play as a country and you control its economy, politics and army to grow and thrive throughout centuries of conflict. This essentially creates little AH stories, in which the player's Scotland or Azerbaijan enjoy new golden ages and conquer half the world, and each game creates a unique world that noone else got to see and so was felt worth sharing.

In various video game forums, people began writing up long faux history books and narratives to explain their historical role playing results rather than just showing the maps. How did Scotland conquer Egypt, why has this AI Russia converted to Hinduism, what culture emerges from Somali ran Italy etc.

Some of the most popular ones on Something Awful and the Paradox forums began playing the game solely for the narrative, deliberately making bad gameplay choices but interesting narrative ones for instance or modding the game to introduce new challenges so the narrative would have ups and downs (a popular choice was for players converting a Crusaders kings game set in medieval Europe to a Europa Universals game to mod the Asian, African and North American countries to be much more advanced so instead of European nations gaining power by conquering weaker countries in the rest of the world, you'd have to fight against an Incan Pizzaro attacking you).

I used to read them years ago. They're not proper AH stories, but they are something vaguely related.
 
My current itch for reading books on never-were vehicles brings up an interesting AH situation. Like I've said before, never-were projects tend to fall into three main categories.

  • Vehicles that were designed for the same requirements and thus have similar performance. They look different (and sometimes not even then) and will have a few changes, but not really that much.
  • Vehicles that were clearly and understandably rejected because they were obviously worse.
  • The real novelties of vehicles that didn't exist in even the same general shape IOTL.
What I find interesting is if you take something that was the clear, obvious winner, and butterfly it away. You can do this with both sides ground attack aircraft. The A-X project that led to the Warthog started off as just a rich man's Skyraider meant for nothing deadlier than South Vietnam. Many of the earlier entries were lower-performance than the gun-toting monster that was actually built. Likewise, the competition for what became the Su-25 consisted of just the T-58 designation and a bunch of low-effort, low-performance modifications of existing designs from the other developers. You could easily end up with what was basically a Soviet Alpha Jet instead.
 
What are some things that you could've gotten away with in AH (especially online) 10 years ago but not today?
 
Admittedly, I really don’t get some alternate history’s or just military history’s fascination with weapons.

There are some instances where the exact type of weapon does matter, but a lot more where it really doesn't that much. Rivet counting is at least understandable for wargaming where, for gameplay reasons small differences can mean something.

What I've noticed WRT military equipment in online AH is not classical nitpicking, but trying to make something implausible happen. IE, less "What if no Merlin engine " and more "What if all fighter aircraft remained propeller driven?"
 
It hasn't completely gone away, but there are far less TLs that attempt to cover all of the world over a period of several centuries. Will say this is a good thing, as most of those TLs were good when covering one region but saw a massive quality decline when they covered areas the author was less familiar with.
 
The old saying is that amateurs talk strategy abd professionals talk logistics. The addendum to this is that complete noobs talk weapons.

I'll add that there's a tendency among enthusiasts who should know better (as opposed to just laypeople I can forgive) for a type of mindset that I like to call "Timmy" , after Magic: The Gathering players who just liked creatures with giant stat ratings (however impractical). I knew a lot of these players in person growing up. Timmies would view (and many have viewed) something like the Kirov-class as the pinnacle of ship design, and pine over the lost Super Tomcat because BIG RADAR BIG PLANE BIG MISSILES.
 
Back
Top