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Alternate History General Discussion

Coiler

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Were the politics of both regions anywhere close to these stances in OTL--and, presuming Sea Lion had taken place and led to partisan resistance, how much of a stretch is it that they're depicted as having such?
I don't know enough about it in real life to comment, but I'll say that...

-It makes for a good story[1].
-If you have Sea Lion succeeding, it's already soft AH, so you might as well go for whatever you think makes for a good story.

[1]Just now, the idea of American/Candian "observers" slipping in to Occupied Britain to see which groups are powerful and trustworthy enough to back in force has entered my mind.
 

Bomster

Well-known member
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What's the most plausible way to get a 1940 peace between Britain and Germany? And what would it look like?
 

ChrisNuttall

Active member
What's the most plausible way to get a 1940 peace between Britain and Germany? And what would it look like?
The simplest solution is to have the UK defeated at Dunkirk or to feel, for some other reason, that continuing the war is a bad idea. This would probably mean Churchill not becoming PM, which might happen if the blame for Norway was placed on him instead of someone else. Halifax didn’t have Churchill’s nerve and might just come to terms with Germany, if the war looks to have stalemated.

I imagine Germany would want her conquests recognised, as well as the return of some of her former colonies in Africa. Italy might want a share of the spoils too, but it would be difficult for her to claim them without German support (which would mean continuing the war). The Free French would probably be disowned, or interned; at the very least, they wouldn’t be allowed to continue the war on their own. Vichy will remain the effective government of unoccupied France. (I imagine they’d at least try to rebuild their military.)

Germany looks like even more of a winner, so most of ‘free’ Europe will probably side with them (for fear of invasion if nothing else). Hitler won’t have the distraction of a war with the UK, so he can continue making preparations for war in the east (and slaughtering everyone he considers undesirables). I don’t think he’d quit while he was ahead. Barbarossa probably goes off earlier than OTL in this universe, which might let the Germans take Moscow. Might. It might also convince the Turks to join the grand crusade against communism too, making life even harder for the Russians. I’d bet the war will burn itself out in 1945, as neither side will be able to win a real victory.

Britain will probably go through a rough patch. The need to rebuild the army will take priority. So will dealing with the threat from Japan. British forces will grow stronger very quickly, allowing them to keep the Italians out of the Med and pressure the Turks to stay neutral; they might not be strong enough to deal with Japan (particularly if Hitler twists French and Dutch arms and convinces them to ‘allow’ the Japanese to ‘secure’ Indochina and the Dutch East Indies. The Japanese may, in this timeline, decide to stab Stalin in the back instead. This might not work too well. They might decide to just keep fighting in China instead.

Long-term, the British Empire is doomed. In this timeline, they may not realise it until it’s too late.

The US will continue to grow stronger too, but with less urgency as the war in Europe appears to be over and Japan seems contained by Britain. Lessons they learnt from OTL won’t be learnt here. If Japan strikes, and Germany declares war, history might go back on track. If she doesn’t, the US will still grow stronger, just at a slower pace.

What do you think?
 

Coiler

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My rule of thumb with alternate terminologies is that they should be something that a reader would still find intuitive. In one of my projects, I substituted the military ranks of "general" with "Grand Colonel" and "Corpsmaster", both of which have an obvious meaning.
 

Charles EP M.

Well-known member
Published by SLP
My rule of thumb with alternate terminologies is that they should be something that a reader would still find intuitive. In one of my projects, I substituted the military ranks of "general" with "Grand Colonel" and "Corpsmaster", both of which have an obvious meaning.
I quite liked the alternate timeline nasty-sounding terms in Doctor Who: Inferno like Brigade Leader and Section Leader, and then I learned these weren't alternate terminologies but translations of SS ranks.

One of the Lethbridge-Stewart novels set in the Inferno timeline invents the term Column Leader as equivalent of colonel, which sounds nice and invocative.
 

Polyphemus

Some kind of robot
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Timeline in a Week, meaning a short timeline that is supposed to be completed in a week but in practice often lasts a couple of weeks.
Thanks! I had been out of the AH community for a few years and I take it that was a more recent development.
 

napoleon IV

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Thanks! I had been out of the AH community for a few years and I take it that was a more recent development.
There's also TLIAD (timeline in a day) and TLIAM (timeline in a month). At least one person has done TLIAPOT (timeline in a period of time) but I'm not clear about how that differs from a regular timeline.
 

Gary Oswald

Old and Foolish now
Sea Lion Press staff
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Timeline in a Week, meaning a short timeline that is supposed to be completed in a week but in practice often lasts a couple of weeks.
Yeah, it was mostly a reaction to kind of mega projects like look to the west which go on for decades becoming the standard. Its like no this is a short thing with a set end that Im writing in a set time period and is somewhat less serious in terms of research. I think its a much better model than the mega timelines.

My first timeline stalled because I was too ambitious and I didnt know where to go with it, whereas if you give yourself the outline of 15 updates covering these things in 8 days, it gets done. Which is what my 4 completed timelines have been.
 

Jared

fatal softener
Published by SLP
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Over the rainbow
Yeah, it was mostly a reaction to kind of mega projects like look to the west which go on for decades becoming the standard. Its like no this is a short thing with a set end that Im writing in a set time period and is somewhat less serious in terms of research. I think its a much better model than the mega timelines.

My first timeline stalled because I was too ambitious and I didnt know where to go with it, whereas if you give yourself the outline of 15 updates covering these things in 8 days, it gets done. Which is what my 4 completed timelines have been.
I like TLIAD precisely because the D could stand for day or for decade, and with me it's always the latter.
 

RyanF

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The TLIAX nomenclature is really a holdover from AH.com where the most common format of narrative TL where these multi-year epics such as Decades of Darkness or Look to the West. It was evocative of a certain thing: a limited number of entries, a particular focus, a list as TL, the style of a smug Wikipedia article. Could almost be considered the online AH equivalent of the miniseries.

I don't think we need the appellation here, but it's as evocative of a certain style as "A Hammer Film Production" was to British horror films. So it remains.
 

Japhy

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There's also TLIAD (timeline in a day) and TLIAM (timeline in a month). At least one person has done TLIAPOT (timeline in a period of time) but I'm not clear about how that differs from a regular timeline.
I never liked the variations of terms. I know that people want to be exacting here but I do remember when I did Bombard the Headquarters someone did a whole response when it was over that I had let everyone down by going for TLIAD when it should have been titled TLIAM, ignoring that the format is as Ryan says, sort of a tag of it being a compact and focused work more then anything.
 

Aznavour

Well-known member
Published by SLP
Recently I acquired and read Argentina’s sole piece of counterfactual history literature, Marcos Victoria’s 1967 Buenos Ayres City: una Ucronía.

The first is a parodic take on Graham Greene and some of the more fanciful fantasies reactionaries had about what Argentina should have been, either as an English rather than a Spanish colony, or as a proper free market economy.

PoD is of course set during the English Invasions of 1806-07, and in this world it was the second one that took, turning poor backwards Argentina into the Provincias Unidas del Río de la Plata/Viceroyalty of the Silver River, an economic superpower with 50 million inhabitants and Britain’s last colony, a super Hong Kong of sorts that, in spite of being the best country in the world with statistics that’d make Switzerland cry with envy, is on the verge of revolution.

Indeed, while the power of the Free Market and Protestant Work Ethics (and properly white immigrants) have created a super utopia, the country’s still ripe for conspiracy and revolution, besieged by domestic conspirators and a ridiculous Legitimate Government in Exile, a parody of a Banana Republic set in the Malvinas in 1940 (same year the Chileans used to pilfer Tierra del Fuego from the British, because you need treacherous Chileans somewhere) used as a smokescreen by the real conspiracy. That the author, writing in 1967, would have accidentally predicted a May of 68 Insurrection but gotten the country wrong is of course one of those funny coincidences one couldn’t help but chuckle at.

In any case, our protagonist/narrator, a nosy and obtuse American journalist sent to report on the situation, meet colorful side-characters and try to get a boring romantic subplot started, gets kicked out of the country before the revolution starts, so that plot points is left hanging, although in any case the plot itself is an excuse to explore this world and get a laugh or two.

For one, everyone speaks a weird form of broken English that’s half a Spanish sentence and half an English sentence, while at the same time using proper English as the official language and Spanish as a private one. Places are of course renamed in terribly literal fashion, and I have to wonder how much was intentional given the parodic bent of the work (Mar del Plata, Tigre, Flores and La Plata become Silver Sea, Tiger, Flowers and Silver City, for instance, while the city and province of Buenos Aires become Buenos Ayres City and New Scotland, respectively). At least it avoids some other egregious ones (Julio A. Roca becomes Jules de la Rocque rather than Julius Rock, as I’ve seen done in online AH covering the same POD and subject)

Argentineans are as arrogant as in real life, except this world gives them cause for it, what with its country specifically designed to be the opposite of the real one, from its thriving economy to first class education to clean streets to quiet peaceful nights with no drunks roaming the streets and excellent utility services which even have the president of the phone company show up in person to apologize if you happen to have bad reception. And of course, no mention of Football, despite it being an English cultural import. I do wonder if that one was deliberate or an oversight.


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