Alternate History General Discussion

[I Saw A Red Sky]

Graham Hancock has entered the chat

Think what he does is maybe something else.

 

[M_Kresal]

Are there any timelines which explore the effects of human civilization arising a few thousand years earlier, either before the last ice age or after it recedes?

Graham Hancock has entered the chat

Times like this remind me there’s a third (ish) or so of a novel I started writing in 2015 inspired by some of Hancock’s stuff that stalled out and never got picked back up on again. I’m suddenly wondering how well it might have sold a few months ago!

 

[Delta Force]

I wasn't really thinking secret history or anything like that but more in terms of the different climate, geography, etc. People sailing the great lakes of the Western United States, Dogger Bank being a petroleum rich land bridge, etc. On a geological timescale a few thousand years really isn't anything.

 

[Coiler]

Very silly Draka-style "Distinctive geography soft AH supervillain state" I've thought up. Catholic or Catholic-offshoot society that rules a gigantic maritime empire in the Pacific composed of all of OTL Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia (and New Guinea/Timor), the Philippines, and maybe even Taiwan, Hainan, and some of the Ryukyus. And a not insubstantial chunk on the mainland.

Language is either Austronesian with substantial romlang elements or romlang with substantial Austronesian elements (besides the usual influences). With the rise of modernity and technology they become the world's predominant maritime power.

 

[History Learner]

Very silly Draka-style "Distinctive geography soft AH supervillain state" I've thought up. Catholic or Catholic-offshoot society that rules a gigantic maritime empire in the Pacific composed of all of OTL Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia (and New Guinea/Timor), the Philippines, and maybe even Taiwan, Hainan, and some of the Ryukyus. And a not insubstantial chunk on the mainland.

Language is either Austronesian with substantial romlang elements or romlang with substantial Austronesian elements (besides the usual influences). With the rise of modernity and technology they become the world's predominant maritime power.

I wrote something like this over a decade ago, with the PoD being the U.S. was able to conquer Canada in 1775-1776 and the UK didn't get South Africa, so the Loyalists went to Australia. The resulting entity wasn't Catholic, and I think I called it something like the "Dominion of Jarvis" after Jarvis Bay. Basically all you outline, plus Southeast Asia.

 

[History Learner]

I wasn't really thinking secret history or anything like that but more in terms of the different climate, geography, etc. People sailing the great lakes of the Western United States, Dogger Bank being a petroleum rich land bridge, etc. On a geological timescale a few thousand years really isn't anything.

One I've thought about more than once is a Peshawar Lancers type scenario creating a new Ice Age, but in the 20th Century. Either WWI, WWII or Cold War era to see how the various nations react and such.

 

[Coiler]

One I've thought about more than once is a Peshawar Lancers type scenario creating a new Ice Age, but in the 20th Century. Either WWI, WWII or Cold War era to see how the various nations react and such.

I've considered a similar one based on my reading of the ALLFED plans to mitigate the loss of conventional agriculture. The choice for this wave of greenhouses and synthesized yummies is a regional nuclear war that leads to a worse-case nuclear winter (I said worse, not worst, but it's still bad).

 

[stevenli]

There aren't many _plausible_ scenarios ending in a World Government either through peaceful federalization, the superceding of national powers through international bodies that make nations, even the USA irrelevant, or flat out Irradiation of a Third of the Globe and conquest of the rest, or in less 'hard power terms', the spread of a singular Human Identity.

 

[Delta Force]

There aren't many _plausible_ scenarios ending in a World Government either through peaceful federalization, the superceding of national powers through international bodies that make nations, even the USA irrelevant, or flat out Irradiation of a Third of the Globe and conquest of the rest, or in less 'hard power terms', the spread of a singular Human Identity.

That depends on what you mean by world government.

 

[Yokai Man]

One of the things that always made the idea of a Beria TL seem pointless to me in terms of writting is that simply put Beria did not have a vision of what he wanted the USSR to be like. If you asked him to name some policies,he would be at a genuine loss. He/Malenkov as his puppet would just do what Nicky K did OTL more or less but slightly less erratic as well as being done more because that's the best that they could think of that isn't Stalinism But With A Different Label.

However,they are two things (beyond no Cuban Missle Crisis I suppose) that would have been different:

1. Ulbricht being replaced after the Berlin Uprising gets sorted out

2. Imre Nagy replacing Rakosi due to Beria thinking a change was needed.

Obviously Beria would not have lasted long and Malenkov would have purged him but there is still time for changes to be made in the leadership of the DDR and Hungary respectively as a result. Now with support from Moscow,Herrnstadt becoming First Secretary is a lot easier and it would be awkward to coup him after couping Ulbricht a few months ago-thought it ain't impossible.

Nagy being in charge earlier would also be interesting,especially if a Revolution still happens in 1956 or if he becomes a Dubcek like figure.

 

[Time Enough]

One of the things that always made the idea of a Beria TL seem pointless to me in terms of writting is that simply put Beria did not have a vision of what he wanted the USSR to be like. If you asked him to name some policies,he would be at a genuine loss. He/Malenkov as his puppet would just do what Nicky K did OTL more or less but slightly less erratic as well as being done more because that's the best that they could think of that isn't Stalinism But With A Different Label.

Now that you say it, yeah. To be fair I think most Post-Stalin would do something similar to Kruschev (apart from like, Molotov and the other more hardliners). Given that Malenkov was seen as one of the engineers of the ‘peace offensive’ this is unsurprising. Amusingly I have also used Nikolai Bulganin before as the ‘Moderate’ candidate.

Beria is definitely purged in time, no one seemed to have liked him and his brief seeming stint of power mainly seems to be due to a power vacuum over him being a potential leader.

An interesting thing with Malenkov is that by the standards of a Soviet leader, he’s fairly young and is unlikely to piss off the local state party bosses like Nicky did in time.

1. Ulbricht being replaced after the Berlin Uprising gets sorted out

2. Imre Nagy replacing Rakosi due to Beria thinking a change was needed.

Interesting, so maybe across the Eastern Blocs there’s more of a Thaw as it were.

 

[Yokai Man]

Interesting, so maybe across the Eastern Blocs there’s more of a Thaw as it were.

Eh,not really. Maybe in the DDR and Hungary a little but not that much to matter.

Besides,1956 is still around the corner and it will still result in a revolution in Hungary-which started out as a solidarity rally towards Polish workers in Poznań. In this scenario though it has the backing of the government and the DDR might join as well,meaning that the Soviets have to put down more people at once.

 

[Time Enough]

Eh,not really. Maybe in the DDR and Hungary a little but not that much to matter.

Besides,1956 is still around the corner and it will still result in a revolution in Hungary-which started out as a solidarity rally towards Polish workers in Poznań. In this scenario though it has the backing of the government and the DDR might join as well,meaning that the Soviets have to put down more people at once.

That could be incredibly interesting, with it also tying in with the Hundred Flowers Campaign, 1956 could be an incredibly eventful year within the Communist nations.

If Poland, East Germany and Hungary are all raising up, I could see an alternate Soviet Union having more difficulty crushing such uprisings. Given that Hungry was kind of damaging to the Communist Bloc in the short term, even more chaos could produce more headaches for Soviet leadership (unless you are Tito in which case your laughing your way to the bank).

 

[Yokai Man]

That could be incredibly interesting, with it also tying in with the Hundred Flowers Campaign, 1956 could be an incredibly eventful year within the Communist nations.

If Poland, East Germany and Hungary are all raising up, I could see an alternate Soviet Union having more difficulty crushing such uprisings. Given that Hungry was kind of damaging to the Communist Bloc in the short term, even more chaos could produce more headaches for Soviet leadership (unless you are Tito in which case your laughing your way to the bank).

I can see the Soviets abolishing DDR’s armed forced indefinitely after this,maybe even considering rehashing talks about a neutral united Germany if it becomes too much of a headache.

Vincenz Müller would definitely have a bigger role here.

 

[Time Enough]

I can see the Soviets abolishing DDR’s armed forced indefinitely after this,maybe even considering rehashing talks about a neutral united Germany if it becomes too much of a headache.

I could see that, actually I think talks occurring in 1953 if Malenkov is in charge and the 1953 Uprising is worse, not because of Beria per say, but it being part of the ‘Peace Offensive’ of the Soviet and Chinese Bloc making feelers to the various Capitalist nations.

A united neutral Germany by the Early 60s would be incredibly interesting and its impact on World affairs.

Vincenz Müller would definitely have a bigger role here.

Definitely, the failure of the DDR armed forces to contain the people would probably have significant consequences for folks like Müller.

 

[Yokai Man]

I could see that, actually I think talks occurring in 1953 if Malenkov is in charge and the 1953 Uprising is worse, not because of Beria per say, but it being part of the ‘Peace Offensive’ of the Soviet and Chinese Bloc making feelers to the various Capitalist nations.

A united neutral Germany by the Early 60s would be incredibly interesting and its impact on World affairs.

Definitely, the failure of the DDR armed forces to contain the people would probably have significant consequences for folks like Müller.

I don't see them succeding though,this late in the Cold War would be seen as giving in to the enemy from the both sides.

The role I meant in regards to Müller is either him defecting to the West with numerous refugees or actually trying to do what the Czechoslovaks thought of doing and starting a conflict at the border to draw NATO in and save the DDR's independence.

 

[Time Enough]

I don't see them succeding though,this late in the Cold War would be seen as giving in to the enemy from the both sides.

The role I meant in regards to Müller is either him defecting to the West with numerous refugees or actually trying to do what the Czechoslovaks thought of doing and starting a conflict at the border to draw NATO in and save the DDR's independence.

Oh that would be something, I do wonder how the Soviets react if they’re spilling large amounts of blood to retake Warsaw Pact nations.

And I do wonder the international effect of Tanks rolling in Budapest, Berlin and Warsaw.

 

[Coiler]

I can see the Soviets abolishing DDR’s armed forced indefinitely after this,maybe even considering rehashing talks about a neutral united Germany if it becomes too much of a headache.

I can such talks being DOA, as the western allies will be reasonably suspicious (and then some).

Although one of my soft AH ideas was an officially neutral (in the Finland/Austria style) chunk of OTL Germany that took the treaty-bending to degrees that made Weimar's treatment of Versailles look mild. Basically by getting tons and tons of civilian dual-use equipment, so you have tons of Volkswagen pickup trucks and SUVs that mysteriously are easy to attach weapon mounts to, and so on. It's partially inspired by OTL Cold War Austria having a ridiculously deep reserve system.

 

[M_Kresal]

Turtledove’s next book is due out in November.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

Fair play, that might be the most interesting POD he's ever thought of.