AHC/WI: "Anatolian"/"Middle Eastern" looking population in South Asia, when the Aryans arrive. How would the Socio-Political developments happen?

[Albert the Singularity]

Hello,

In the OTL, the "White" Indo-Iranians migrating from the Eurasian steppes met with the dark skinned natives, descended from Iranian agriculturalists and AASI tribes (similar to the Andamanese).

In an ATL, what if there was a larger migration from the Middle East and Anatolia, as early agriculturalists, into the Subcontinent, leading to the population of South and West looking ranging from the Anatolian/Armenian look to the Arab/Modern Iranian/Kurdish appearance, with the AASI swamped by the more efficient Agricultural population?

In this case, I think the Indo-Iranians migrants might rather assimilate into the existing society, with the linguistic change probably happening more slowly, unlike OTL. This might lead to more Neolithic languages surviving, unlike OTL, where only Burusho is the relic of the Neolithic Near Eastern languages.

Religion might evolve differently, probably giving rise to Sky/Sun cults and Shamanism, which will influence the Mesopotamia and even Europe. Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and Hinduism might rather be replaced by these Sky/Sun cults and Shaman religions.

Indian, Central Asian and West Asian people will look a mix of Central European to Arab.

Also, in absence of the Caste system and the excessive disunity, this India is more expansive unlike OTL and we might see great walls built like that of China, if they decide to expand to the North. This India would be an another China or a large version of South Korea/Japan (optimistic scenario but China scenario is easy), in the Modern Era, and that would mean a lot of things. Geopolitics would be interesting as India generally maintains friendly relations with the West. And such a large country with a population of 1.6 billion (Including Pakistan and Bangladesh, as Islamic invasions don't happen) being on the side of the USA+rest of the Free World, means big things, and feats achievable that are unimaginable in the OTL present.

We would probably have been a Type-2 Civilization or a Dyson Sphere by now, with everyone Immortal. So, what do you think?

 

[Neal]

Please stop with racial AH - we know what went on the Other Site

 

[Albert the Singularity]

Please stop with racial AH - we know what went on the Other Site

It won't be the same as there, I assure you. That was based on misinformation, and misinterpretation by other members. That wont happen here, I assure.

This thread is based on a genuine ATL experiment.

 

[Ricardolindo]

Sorry for deviating from the topic, but the South Asian hunter-gatherers weren't really similar to the Andamanese. They were distinct by millenia of genetic drift and independent evolution.

 

[Albert the Singularity]

Okay. Updated my information banks. That's however, not very important for this timeline.

Neolithic Anatolian and Caucasian (Kura-Araxes) agriculturalists migrating en-masse to South Asia is however, interesting.

A possible route: Circa 5000-4000 BCE. The Anatolian and Kura Araxes agriculturalists occupy Mesopotamia and settle en-masse, while Coastal communities build Fishery fed cities, as somewhat OTL. Due to population pressure and fights, large groups of the population flee and settle in and around Indus Valley, Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, Maharashtra and Kerala. They migrate on land and sea, by around 4000 BC. Agriculturalists multiply faster than hunter-gatherers and hence the population swells to 90:10 ratio, with the natives, by 3000 BC.

I think you have got the result intended. Indian Subcontinent might be homogeneous and unified by 3000-2500 BC. Indo-Iranians wont arrive till 1800 BC, which is 700-800 years after. The unified South Asia might send off Anatolian Agriculturalist settlements and city states in what is OTL BMAC. The Aryans might pick up agriculture and Civilization from them, and instead migrate as a sedentary community. This would make Northern parts of India more Indo-Iranian, and more identical to Central and Eastern Europeans, as all the Kura Araxes and Anatolian Neolithic languages survive in the Central and South.

In around 500-100 BC, an empire like Rome might rise, unifying the subcontinent.

 

[Makemakean]

I cannot help but wonder why you think that a ”middle-eastern” population would be any less incapable of coming up with political disunity and/or a caste system, or why they would be inclined to maintain better relations with the west. Nor do I really understand why the development of a caste system is something you would ascribe to the ethnic origins of the Indians.

Nor do I understand why, assuming Islam still happens, they wouldn’t be just as capable of launching an invadion in an India populated by a ”middle-eastern” people.

 

[Albert the Singularity]

cannot help but wonder why you think that a ”middle-eastern” population would be any less incapable of coming up with political disunity and/or a caste system

Homogeneous initial population helps a lot. IOTL, it was the opposite, even for the Indus Valley Civilization, which was recently revealed to have a brutal caste system and a slave trade with Sumer.

inclined to maintain better relations with the west

Geographical location of India warrants they always maintain a good relations with the West. And also, if the two large competitors, China and Russia, generally are as against as it gets, to the Free World, India, with its population in range of Turkish/Levantine Arab population to Central European type, would become as close to the West as it gets, especially with the unified and an homogeneous population, with decent and progressive philosophies and moral values (the Sky/Sun Cult and the Shaman religion I talked about, which would develop due to unity).

Nor do I understand why, assuming Islam still happens, they wouldn’t be just as capable of launching an invadion in an India populated by a ”middle-eastern” people.

Without the disunity as OTL, India, with its Sky/Sun cult and Shaman religion, and a mostly homogeneous population as described, will bind together and be expansive into Central Asia and Afghanistan, unlike OTL. Without Civil Wars like the Byzantine Empire (which came from the Theme system in the arid Anatolia), this will resist any invasion and stay unified.

 

[Makemakean]

Homogeneous initial population helps a lot. IOTL, it was the opposite, even for the Indus Valley Civilization, which was recently revealed to have a brutal caste system and a slave trade with Sumer.

Homogenous population by what metric?

Where are you getting your data as to how relatively homogenous the population was in the Middle East, India, etc. 5000-3000 BCE? And where is this notion of homogeneity of population meaning a drive towards political unification and centralization coming from?

If the history of Europe is anything to go by, relative ethnic homogeneity hardly prevented Germany and Italy from dissolving into increasingly more and more fragmented powers after the fall of Rome. Nor did it lead to a united Scandinavia, Belgium and Luxembourg no longer form part of the Netherlands, there is no Yugoslavia, etc.

Geographical location of India warrants they always maintain a good relations with the West.

And yet, the geography would be no different from OTL.

And also, if the two large competitors, China and Russia, generally are as against as it gets, to the Free World, India, with its population in range of Turkish/Levantine Arab population to Central European type, would become as close to the West as it gets, especially with the unified and an homogeneous population, with decent and progressive philosophies and moral values (the Sky/Sun Cult and the Shaman religion I talked about, which would develop due to unity).

Why would "Middle-Eastern/Anatolian" people be more inclined towards developing, err-... "decent and progressive philosophies and moral values" than Indians?

Without Civil Wars like the Byzantine Empire (which came from the Theme system in the arid Anatolia), this will resist any invasion and stay unified.

Your argument for that this India would not fall to Islamic invasion is that it would be much more like the Byzantine Empire.

An empire that famously fell to Islamic invasion.

Also, why wouldn't these Indians be likely to convert of their own accord? The Turkic people of central Asia and the people of Malaysia and Indonesia converted to Islam without the need for a big Arabian army decreeing "the al-Koran or the sword"...

 

[Makemakean]

This thread is based on a genuine ATL experiment.

How do you perform a "genuine ATL experiment"?

 

[Japhy]

So is it an accident you're basing this all off of Neo Nazi racial theory applied to the Indian Caste system?

 

[lerk]

Hate to bring up other site drama but were you "Albert.nik" on AH.com? You posted these sort of WIs and it got you banned

 

[Albert the Singularity]

I am Albert.Nik, yes.

However, I am planning an another ATL about Abbasid Arab and Persian settlement in Northwest Subcontinent, which would also be of a similar result.

However, the Abbasids of this TL will found a separate religion based on the one I have described here (Sky and Sun Cult Based Shamanism). Contrary to the popular belief, Islam actually came to OTL beliefs with the Abbasid era. Not an opinion of mine, but a scholarly one.

This is just one. Another I am planning is about a Tibetic Ladakhi majority in Indian Subcontinent.

 

[Albert the Singularity]

My ideas is about creating an ATL homogeneous and unified subcontinent, with a highly unified religion and philosophy, that will be conducive to Science. Either East Asian Tibetic (Ladakhi) or Middle Eastern/Anatolian populations fit for this, due to the location and routes I won't have to clarify further. White European India is possible, but very difficult.

Only an ATL Baltic farming revolution can get you that result (I had misunderstood this and hence posted White India TLs on the other website), but Baltic farming revolution is interesting, which is a topic for an another thread (that will have implications for entire World, not just India).

 

[Makemakean]

My ideas is about creating an ATL homogeneous and unified subcontinent, with a highly unified religion and philosophy, that will be conducive to Science. Either East Asian Tibetic (Ladakhi) or Middle Eastern/Anatolian populations fit for this, due to the location and routes I won't have to clarify further. White European is possible, but very difficult. Only an ATL Baltic farming revolution can get you that result (I had misunderstood this and hence posted White India TLs on the other website), but Baltic farming revolution is interesting, which is a topic for an another thread.

Okay, again, where are you getting the notion that homogeneity leads to political unification and centralization?

How do you go about in trying to establish the extent to which various ethnic groups were homogeneous 5000 years into the past?

Where are you getting the notion that political unification and centralization actually leads to innovation? I mean, personally, if I were to look at the history of humanity, I'd be inclined to say that political disunity and fragmentation is what has marked the periods when we saw the greatest scientific, technological, philosophical, and cultural advances.

Finally, and without putting too fine a point to it... Well, it does seem like you are trying to tacitly advance a thesis of "it it hadn't been for the Indians, who are non-conductive to science, with their brutal caste system and their lack of decent and progressive philosophies and moral values, then we'd have Dyson spheres and everyone would be immortal by now"...

 

[Albert the Singularity]

Finally, and without putting too fine a point to it... Well, it does seem like you are trying to tacitly advance a thesis of "it it hadn't been for the Indians, who are non-conductive to science, with their brutal caste system and their lack of decent and progressive philosophies and moral values, then we'd have Dyson spheres and everyone would be immortal by now"...

To say, this is one of the "Dark and Hard Truths of the World". Others involve Greek, Ottoman, Holy Roman and Roman Empires falling, Mesopotamia, Egypt and Anatolia not continuing as unified empires, Huns and Mongols destroying lots of the World, and many more. Nothing more to discuss but we have to accept that fact and rise above that, to get actually good Scientific solutions to the Future (Transhumanism which should begin in 2030, is my idea that will solve these things, peacefully). I won't answer if you twist it again.

Where are you getting the notion that political unification and centralization actually leads to innovation? I mean, personally, if I were to look at the history of humanity, I'd be inclined to say that political disunity and fragmentation is what has marked the periods when we saw the greatest scientific, technological, philosophical, and cultural advances.

There are different types of unity and disunity. Unity and homogeneity helped China, USA, Korea and Japan. That type of unity helps, while some competition with the external regions, will help in advancement of Science.

 

[Makemakean]

this is one of the "Dark and Hard Truths of the World"

Tremendous.