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AHC: Catholic-Orthodox map split like Eastern Bloc-Western Bloc
- Thread starter lerk
- Start date
LSCatilina
Never Forget Avaricon
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- Teuta Albigas - Rutenoi - Keltika
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- ēs/xsi
The "easiest" way to get it would be IMO to successfully enforce the Union of Churches : the earlier, the best, so maybe work something from the Second Council of Lyon of 1274 to at least get a nominal communion. Of course by "easiest" I mean that mostly on paper : you wouldn't have too much trouble having Constantinople under a Byzantine or Latin emperor (if more successful) agreeing to the principle on paper but you'll get immediate opposition from both the clergy and the population that would be hard to overcome. Maybe a lasting Catholic (and this is why I rather think of a lasting Latin Byzantine Empire) presence would make it possible on the long run to have a Catholic-Uniate plurality.
An Orthodox Central Europe wouldn't be easy in itself either because by crippling Constantinople as there wouldn't be no clear and powerful enough orthodox center, you have little incitation for pretty much Catholic kingdoms as Poland or Hungary, to say *nothing* of the eastern parts of the Empire. The best I could come up with would be a very tweaked definition of "Orthodox", basically a "Latin Rite Orthodoxy" committent with both an earlier national or proto-national awakening (think of a Gallican, Hussite or Anglican Church except joining up as "Orthodox" together with more historical Orthodox Churches in Eastern Europe.
An Orthodox Central Europe wouldn't be easy in itself either because by crippling Constantinople as there wouldn't be no clear and powerful enough orthodox center, you have little incitation for pretty much Catholic kingdoms as Poland or Hungary, to say *nothing* of the eastern parts of the Empire. The best I could come up with would be a very tweaked definition of "Orthodox", basically a "Latin Rite Orthodoxy" committent with both an earlier national or proto-national awakening (think of a Gallican, Hussite or Anglican Church except joining up as "Orthodox" together with more historical Orthodox Churches in Eastern Europe.
As said above, I can see it happening fairly easily if what you care about is what church is in charge, with some kind of equivalent reverse of the current Greek Catholic rite.
Alternative, more radical idea: orthodox reform that put it closer to the Hussites and Protestants and a loose orthodox church union that include those
Of course with a pod further back, you can probably have a greek rite Poland, which gets you some way there. Or maybe an orthodox Poland-Lithuania that comes to some kind of accommodation with latin rite worshippers in Poland, before pushing west through dynastic unions in Brandenburg and Bohemia and extending that deal to them?
Another seed of an idea could be no Mongols and a center of orthodoxy in Kiev that claims dominion over all slavs, but that would still leave you with the question of how to push into east Germany.
And if you want to go full edge, clerical fascist Russia going all genocidal until its fascist Warsaw Pact is all orthodox is always an option. Probably the one I can see without some kind of latin orthodoxy deal.
Something else to note: this map leaves you with Greece as Catholic, which is interesting. Longer lasting post 4th crusade latin rule?
Alternative, more radical idea: orthodox reform that put it closer to the Hussites and Protestants and a loose orthodox church union that include those
Of course with a pod further back, you can probably have a greek rite Poland, which gets you some way there. Or maybe an orthodox Poland-Lithuania that comes to some kind of accommodation with latin rite worshippers in Poland, before pushing west through dynastic unions in Brandenburg and Bohemia and extending that deal to them?
Another seed of an idea could be no Mongols and a center of orthodoxy in Kiev that claims dominion over all slavs, but that would still leave you with the question of how to push into east Germany.
And if you want to go full edge, clerical fascist Russia going all genocidal until its fascist Warsaw Pact is all orthodox is always an option. Probably the one I can see without some kind of latin orthodoxy deal.
Something else to note: this map leaves you with Greece as Catholic, which is interesting. Longer lasting post 4th crusade latin rule?
raharris1973
Well-known member
A Cyril and Methodius wank? Where they don't just end up develop a Greek-based alphabet when trying to missionize the Moravians, but actually convert them and the Poles and Wends/Sorbs/Lusatians and priesthoods help local Slavic Kings (or Avar or Magyar ones) hold off German /East Frankish Drang Nach Osten. [In OTL, Cyril and Methodius failed to enduringly convert any west Slavs or keep any tied to their home patriarchate of Constantinople. The alphabet they designed was only used by south and east Slavs]. Greece gets colonized by Italians or Frankish Crusaders.
It'd be interesting if you still have migration of Germans east but more akin to the later waves, settled under non-German, orthodox states.
The border of east Germany is probably a bit too far west to just be that, but it's a lot easier to push it there and have some agreement for the remaining German majority areas if you've already done most of the hard work by having the border of orthodoxy much closer to it already.
To complete the cold war map, Yugoslavia as a Greek/Slavic rite catholic nation?
Ricardolindo
Well-known member
- Location
- Portugal
The Baltics are possible if the Russian Orthodox Church had been more successful in missions there. However, Bohemia, Hungary and Poland are too close to the Holy Roma Empire, IMO. Maybe Eastern Poland could be possible, though. If Poland had been divided along the Vistula, Poland east of the Vistula could have become Orthodox.How could the spread of Orthodox Christianity be akin to the OTL spread of the Eastern Bloc? What would the consequences be of Eastern Orthodoxy in the modern day Baltics, Poland, Czechia etc.?
What's the equivalent of non-aligned and Other Communist here?
Cathars,Hussites,Jews,Muslims etc.
Tbh the main point of this was just to have Orthodoxy spread to the areas where the Eastern Bloc was, as for other countries they can remain Catholic or you can have your own headcanon if you really want a Cold War analogue but they weren't the point of this thread.
Orthodoxy never really had a presence in the West that far, you would need something like Carolingians or even Franks to go belly up with conversions among the Sorbs with the Poles and the Baltic as a given. Also maybe Great Moravia stays Orthodox. But I don't know what works with a clean singular POD.
Jackson Lennock
Well-known member
It seems that the Orthodox Christian World was curious about the possibility of the Lutheran and Orthodox world reuniting (but I'm only going off of this video). The Orthodox Christians viewed 7 of the 21 Augsburg Confession principles as heretical, but agreed with the Lutherans on the other 14 although they said the Lutherans were doing it wrong. Maybe some German States decide to make their forms of Protestantism Orthodox-adjacent.
It's a bit cute that this map has divided the UK and the USSR into its constituent parts, but hasn't divided Yugoslavia, so it's not like they're doing some "historical situation overlaid on present day map" (as if the UK is divided in the present day anyways). That's an alternate history right there...How could the spread of Orthodox Christianity be akin to the OTL spread of the Eastern Bloc? What would the consequences be of Eastern Orthodoxy in the modern day Baltics, Poland, Czechia etc.?
Jackson Lennock
Well-known member
Could Sweden have converted to Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism? Their trade was directed to the east and the Dnieper-Volga, so it would make some economic sense.
Lithuania converted to Catholicism to merge with Poland. Could Lithuania convert to Orthodoxy instead?
Sweden and Lithuania could later form a union and spread orthodoxy to the Elbe.
Lithuania converted to Catholicism to merge with Poland. Could Lithuania convert to Orthodoxy instead?
Sweden and Lithuania could later form a union and spread orthodoxy to the Elbe.
Do it for religions too, I guess Mary I wasn't followed by Elizabeth and there's no union with Scotland's crown (and Wales had a revolution while Ireland went protestant I dunno)
frittering
the tropic of cancer answered, drink the quicksand
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- Vincent Hallinan Country
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