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Charles EP M.

Well-known member
Published by SLP
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE THIRD WORLD WAR

1.) IT WASN'T COMPLETELY ABOUT BERLIN

Yes, we all learned in school about the planes getting shot down over Tempelhof. But it's not like the Russian Airforce randomly decide that the summer of 1948 was a good time for a war!

The previous few years formed what's often called the 'Peace of Potsdam' or 'The Fake Peace.' During this time, the USSR (not Russia) jockeyed with her previous allies for influence in Eastern Europe, and in East Asia. If you want to understand World War Three, you need to know about more than just the airlift!

2.) NO, IT ISN'T STILL ONGOING

People like to claim that the fact that the People's Republic of China (to seperate it from the then seperate Taiwan government) has never formally made peace with the Japan means that the war never actually ended. HOWEVER, while the two armies do enjoy staring angrily at each other across the Korea Straits, neither was officially a belligerant in the Soviet-American war, Japan not existing as an independent country and Mao just using the distraction to claim the rest of the Korean peninsula without a fight.

3.) IT WAS NEVER CHURCHILL'S WAR

Although at the time, and for along time afterwards, the Soviet Union and anti-War politicians in the West liked to think that they had been duped into another World War by former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and a vast conspiracy network he had formed on a tour of the Western Allies post-war, the fact is no evidence has has ever come to light to substantiate the claims. The origin of this theory comes out of Operation Unthinkable, possible war plans the British came up with in the event of war in 1945. By the time war broke out however, Churchill had been out of power for 3 years and the ideas - it is a vast overestimation to call Unthinkable a final war plan - were thrown out by the next government, and Britain's involvement in the land war didn't not warrant the amount of influence that Stalin thought it had. If this been known to the Marshal or Soviet High Command it is likely that they would have chosen a more sensible target than Kent for their first atomic strike.

4.) It wasn't Patton's fault

George S. Patton usually gets painted as one of the villains of the piece, a vainglorious blowhard whose mad dash into East Germany sparked off a destructive conflict that rivalled the one just finished. A pervasive myth but one that omits certain facts, the main one being Patton was simply following the chain of command and the orders of EUCOM. The disastrous first push into Eastern Germany that led to the Lepzig massacre needed a scapegoat, as did the mass death that followed and it was easiest to blame the media friendly Patton. Especially helpful was the fact he died at the front, killed in a random strafing attack. The Patton myth still exists to this day, despite modern historians attempts to debunk it, even Patton's private paper show his deep unease with the orders he was given. This looks to be one myth that simply refuses to d

5) WE WERE ONLY SAVED BY NAZIS

This myth is heralded by the far left and the neo-Nazis alike, as well as various pop culture takes. It is true that Von Braun's team and the A1 nuclear rocket was of vital strategic importance in preventing the first Soviet advance - but originally that was meant solely as a way of stopping the Red Army at the Franco-Belgian coast, which would have resulted in a 'stalemate' (realistically, a Soviet strategic victory). The French forces holding on for as long as they did meant the A1 was able to force the Soviets to leave part of continental Europe unoccupied. And that would still have led to another Soviet-supporting stalemate if other fronts, devoid of the 'wonder weapon', had all ended in Soviet victory.
 

Walpurgisnacht

These days, if you’re a Kennedy, they impeach you
Location
Banned from the forum
Pronouns
He/Him
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE THIRD WORLD WAR

1.) IT WASN'T COMPLETELY ABOUT BERLIN

Yes, we all learned in school about the planes getting shot down over Tempelhof. But it's not like the Russian Airforce randomly decided that the summer of 1948 was a good time for a war!

The previous few years formed what's often called the 'Peace of Potsdam' or 'The Fake Peace.' During this time, the USSR (not Russia) jockeyed with her previous allies for influence in Eastern Europe, and in East Asia. If you want to understand World War Three, you need to know about more than just the airlift!

2.) NO, IT ISN'T STILL ONGOING

People like to claim that the fact that the People's Republic of China (to seperate it from the then seperate Taiwan government) has never formally made peace with the Japan means that the war never actually ended. HOWEVER, while the two armies do enjoy staring angrily at each other across the Korea Straits, neither was officially a belligerant in the Soviet-American war, Japan not existing as an independent country and Mao just using the distraction to claim the rest of the Korean peninsula without a fight.

3.) IT WAS NEVER CHURCHILL'S WAR

Although at the time, and for a long time afterwards, the Soviet Union and anti-War politicians in the West liked to think that they had been duped into another World War by former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and a vast conspiracy network he had formed on a tour of the Western Allies post-war, the fact is no evidence has has ever come to light to substantiate the claims. The origin of this theory comes out of Operation Unthinkable, possible war plans the British came up with in the event of war in 1945. By the time war broke out however, Churchill had been out of power for 3 years and the ideas - it is a vast overestimation to call Unthinkable a final war plan - were thrown out by the next government, and Britain's involvement in the land war didn't not warrant the amount of influence that Stalin thought it had. If this been known to the Marshal or Soviet High Command it is likely that they would have chosen a more sensible target than Kent for their first atomic strike.

4.) IT WASN'T PATTON'S FAULT

George S. Patton usually gets painted as one of the villains of the piece, a vainglorious blowhard whose mad dash into East Germany sparked off a destructive conflict that rivalled the one just finished. A pervasive myth but one that omits certain facts, the main one being Patton was simply following the chain of command and the orders of EUCOM. The disastrous first push into Eastern Germany that led to the Lepzig massacre needed a scapegoat, as did the mass death that followed, and it was easiest to blame the media friendly Patton. Especially helpful was the fact he died at the front, killed in a random strafing attack. The Patton myth still exists to this day, despite modern historians attempts to debunk it, even Patton's private paper show his deep unease with the orders he was given. This looks to be one myth that simply refuses to die.

5) "WE WERE ONLY SAVED BY NAZIS!"

This myth is heralded by the far left and the neo-Nazis alike, as well as various pop culture takes. It is true that Von Braun's team and the A1 nuclear rocket was of vital strategic importance in preventing the first Soviet advance - but originally that was meant solely as a way of stopping the Red Army at the Franco-Belgian coast, which would have resulted in a 'stalemate' (realistically, a Soviet strategic victory). The French forces holding on for as long as they did meant the A1 was able to force the Soviets to leave part of continental Europe unoccupied. And that would still have led to another Soviet-supporting stalemate if other fronts, devoid of the 'wonder weapon', had all ended in Soviet victory.

6) OPERATION DEZHNEV WOULDN'T HAVE CHANGED THE WAR

The countless film adaptions of the failed Russian plan's defeat--most recently 2017's Ten Thousand Smokes--have given the operation a vast presence in the average man's mind. But despite widespread belief, the plan was utterly doomed even before the Battle of Umnak Pass sunk most of the transports bringing reinforcements. Far from leading to a Russian bridgehead in the Americas and Soviet forces marching on Washington, as is often assumed, the supply lines for the Russian troops were incredibly stretched, especially for the "First Prong" landing in Nome--hence their easy send-off by the town's inhabitants. The entire operation of invading Alaska was just another foolish moonshot that had to be treated as a detailed stratagem because it originated with Stalin. The sheer terror of Soviet boots on US soil, however, means that the myth of the ultra-effective Dezhnev capitulating the US refuses to die.
 

Charles EP M.

Well-known member
Published by SLP
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE THIRD WORLD WAR

1.) IT WASN'T COMPLETELY ABOUT BERLIN

Yes, we all learned in school about the planes getting shot down over Tempelhof. But it's not like the Russian Airforce randomly decided that the summer of 1948 was a good time for a war!

The previous few years formed what's often called the 'Peace of Potsdam' or 'The Fake Peace.' During this time, the USSR (not Russia) jockeyed with her previous allies for influence in Eastern Europe, and in East Asia. If you want to understand World War Three, you need to know about more than just the airlift!

2.) NO, IT ISN'T STILL ONGOING

People like to claim that the fact that the People's Republic of China (to seperate it from the then seperate Taiwan government) has never formally made peace with the Japan means that the war never actually ended. HOWEVER, while the two armies do enjoy staring angrily at each other across the Korea Straits, neither was officially a belligerant in the Soviet-American war, Japan not existing as an independent country and Mao just using the distraction to claim the rest of the Korean peninsula without a fight.

3.) IT WAS NEVER CHURCHILL'S WAR

Although at the time, and for a long time afterwards, the Soviet Union and anti-War politicians in the West liked to think that they had been duped into another World War by former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and a vast conspiracy network he had formed on a tour of the Western Allies post-war, the fact is no evidence has has ever come to light to substantiate the claims. The origin of this theory comes out of Operation Unthinkable, possible war plans the British came up with in the event of war in 1945. By the time war broke out however, Churchill had been out of power for 3 years and the ideas - it is a vast overestimation to call Unthinkable a final war plan - were thrown out by the next government, and Britain's involvement in the land war didn't not warrant the amount of influence that Stalin thought it had. If this been known to the Marshal or Soviet High Command it is likely that they would have chosen a more sensible target than Kent for their first atomic strike.

4.) IT WASN'T PATTON'S FAULT

George S. Patton usually gets painted as one of the villains of the piece, a vainglorious blowhard whose mad dash into East Germany sparked off a destructive conflict that rivalled the one just finished. A pervasive myth but one that omits certain facts, the main one being Patton was simply following the chain of command and the orders of EUCOM. The disastrous first push into Eastern Germany that led to the Lepzig massacre needed a scapegoat, as did the mass death that followed, and it was easiest to blame the media friendly Patton. Especially helpful was the fact he died at the front, killed in a random strafing attack. The Patton myth still exists to this day, despite modern historians attempts to debunk it, even Patton's private paper show his deep unease with the orders he was given. This looks to be one myth that simply refuses to die.

5) "WE WERE ONLY SAVED BY NAZIS!"

This myth is heralded by the far left and the neo-Nazis alike, as well as various pop culture takes. It is true that Von Braun's team and the A1 nuclear rocket was of vital strategic importance in preventing the first Soviet advance - but originally that was meant solely as a way of stopping the Red Army at the Franco-Belgian coast, which would have resulted in a 'stalemate' (realistically, a Soviet strategic victory). The French forces holding on for as long as they did meant the A1 was able to force the Soviets to leave part of continental Europe unoccupied. And that would still have led to another Soviet-supporting stalemate if other fronts, devoid of the 'wonder weapon', had all ended in Soviet victory.

6) OPERATION DEZHNEV WOULDN'T HAVE CHANGED THE WAR

The countless film adaptions of the failed Russian plan's defeat--most recently 2017's Ten Thousand Smokes--have given the operation a vast presence in the average man's mind. But despite widespread belief, the plan was utterly doomed even before the Battle of Umnak Pass sunk most of the transports bringing reinforcements. Far from leading to a Russian bridgehead in the Americas and Soviet forces marching on Washington, as is often assumed, the supply lines for the Russian troops were incredibly stretched, especially for the "First Prong" landing in Nome--hence their easy send-off by the town's inhabitants. The entire operation of invading Alaska was just another foolish moonshot that had to be treated as a detailed stratagem because it originated with Stalin. The sheer terror of Soviet boots on US soil, however, means that the myth of the ultra-effective Dezhnev capitulating the US refuses to die.

7) THE WEST SHOULD'VE STOPPED BEFORE MOSCOW

This is an understandable view, considering the utter bloodbath Operation Thor turned out to be for both Allied forces and the Russian people. Could a better way have been found? Not with Stalin in charge - we know numerous efforts at an armistice through neutral parties and secret backchannels failed. Until the last days of the Battle of Moscow, Stalin was still sure he could win and it's only when he tried to depart the city that his "suicide" happened. Remember that at the time, most of the Allies were exhausted and declassified records of the Cyprus Conference show both the Australians and the entire South American block were trying to avoid being part of Operation Thor. If any other way was possible, they'd have taken it and happily written off the occupied European states (who, let's remember, had disappeared from various propaganda efforts by then).


--


SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE BRITISH RESISTANCE

1) THE COMMUNISTS DID NOTHING UNTIL STALIN SAID TO

This is partly true, in that various British communist bigwigs did indeed do nothing in the spirit of the Nazi-Soviet Pact and abruptly changed their mind when Stalin wanted. What's left out is that the communist rank-and-file balked at the orders to 'down tools' during Sea Lion and afterwards; unfortunately, this meant rebelling against leadership and forming new groups at the worst possible time. Add in that collaborators handed over lists of known and 'suspected' communists to the Gestapo and SS, and it's estimated one in two communist rebels were killed. Many of the survivors would become part of less explicitly political groups, and just because a communist was in Manchester City (a codename btw, Cracked, not the actual football team), doesn't mean they weren't a communist.
 

Comisario

Hello Tony, I am 1952
Published by SLP
Location
London
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE BRITISH RESISTANCE

1) THE COMMUNISTS DID NOTHING UNTIL STALIN SAID TO

This is partly true, in that various British communist bigwigs did indeed do nothing in the spirit of the Nazi-Soviet Pact and abruptly changed their mind when Stalin wanted. What's left out is that the communist rank-and-file balked at the orders to 'down tools' during Sea Lion and afterwards; unfortunately, this meant rebelling against leadership and forming new groups at the worst possible time. Add in that collaborators handed over lists of known and 'suspected' communists to the Gestapo and SS, and it's estimated one in two communist rebels were killed. Many of the survivors would become part of less explicitly political groups, and just because a communist was in Manchester City (a codename btw, Cracked, not the actual football team), doesn't mean they weren't a communist.

2) THEY ASSASSINATED KING EDWARD VIII

It has been pretty much internalised in the post-occupation mythos that the Resistance was directly responsible for the deaths of King Edward and Queen Wallis on the 1st August 1945, though the supposed assassin has never been revealed. In his memoirs, Victor Rothschild (yes, the man whose attempt to bring Israel-Palestine into the Sterling Area caused the crash of '66) asserted that it was Michael Foot who killed Edward VIII but Foot himself always denied this charge - not that it would have done him any disadvantage, mind. No, as according to the recently released diaries of the couple's driver and the King's letters that were received by Joachim von Ribbentrop in the week leading up to his death, in fact, the truth is far more dull: the couple committed suicide by gunshot. The Resistance never did get their two top targets.
 

Time Enough

"Enthusiastic Cis Male Partner"
Pronouns
He/Him
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE BRITISH RESISTANCE

1) THE COMMUNISTS DID NOTHING UNTIL STALIN SAID TO

This is partly true, in that various British communist bigwigs did indeed do nothing in the spirit of the Nazi-Soviet Pact and abruptly changed their mind when Stalin wanted. What's left out is that the communist rank-and-file balked at the orders to 'down tools' during Sea Lion and afterwards; unfortunately, this meant rebelling against leadership and forming new groups at the worst possible time. Add in that collaborators handed over lists of known and 'suspected' communists to the Gestapo and SS, and it's estimated one in two communist rebels were killed. Many of the survivors would become part of less explicitly political groups, and just because a communist was in Manchester City (a codename btw, Cracked, not the actual football team), doesn't mean they weren't a communist.

2) THEY ASSASSINATED KING EDWARD VIII

It has been pretty much internalised in the post-occupation mythos that the Resistance was directly responsible for the deaths of King Edward and Queen Wallis on the 1st August 1945, though the supposed assassin has never been revealed. In his memoirs, Victor Rothschild (yes, the man whose attempt to bring Israel-Palestine into the Sterling Area caused the crash of '66) asserted that it was Michael Foot who killed Edward VIII but Foot himself always denied this charge - not that it would have done him any disadvantage, mind. No, as according to the recently released diaries of the couple's driver and of Joachim von Ribbentrop, in fact, the truth is far more dull: the couple committed suicide by gunshot. The Resistance never did get their two top targets.

3). THAT THEY WERE ALL DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY THE GOVERNMENT IN EXILE

The British Government in Exile likes to claim they supported all of the Resistance unilaterally, that the entire cause was unified cause to clear out the Nazi’s. This wasn’t true with the Government in Exile emphasising support for the “Democratic” and “Royalist” forces over Nationalist, Communist and Anarchist organisations. In particular the Welsh and Scottish Nationalist Resistance movements were barely given any support leading to them turning to the Collins Irish Government for support. This would explain the rise in ‘Celtic’ Nationalism in the aftermath of the War despite the best efforts of the Bevan Government.
 

SenatorChickpea

The Most Kiwi Aussie of them all
Patreon supporter
Pronouns
he/him
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE BRITISH RESISTANCE

1) THE COMMUNISTS DID NOTHING UNTIL STALIN SAID TO

This is partly true, in that various British communist bigwigs did indeed do nothing in the spirit of the Nazi-Soviet Pact and abruptly changed their mind when Stalin wanted. What's left out is that the communist rank-and-file balked at the orders to 'down tools' during Sea Lion and afterwards; unfortunately, this meant rebelling against leadership and forming new groups at the worst possible time. Add in that collaborators handed over lists of known and 'suspected' communists to the Gestapo and SS, and it's estimated one in two communist rebels were killed. Many of the survivors would become part of less explicitly political groups, and just because a communist was in Manchester City (a codename btw, Cracked, not the actual football team), doesn't mean they weren't a communist.

2) THEY ASSASSINATED KING EDWARD VIII

It has been pretty much internalised in the post-occupation mythos that the Resistance was directly responsible for the deaths of King Edward and Queen Wallis on the 1st August 1945, though the supposed assassin has never been revealed. In his memoirs, Victor Rothschild (yes, the man whose attempt to bring Israel-Palestine into the Sterling Area caused the crash of '66) asserted that it was Michael Foot who killed Edward VIII but Foot himself always denied this charge - not that it would have done him any disadvantage, mind. No, as according to the recently released diaries of the couple's driver and the King's letters that were received by Joachim von Ribbentrop in the week leading up to his death, in fact, the truth is far more dull: the couple committed suicide by gunshot. The Resistance never did get their two top targets.

3). THAT THEY WERE DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY THE GOVERNMENT IN EXILE

The British Government in Exile likes to claim they supported all of the Resistance unilaterally, that the entire cause was unified cause to clear out the Nazi’s. This wasn’t true with the Government in Exile emphasising support for the “Democratic” and “Royalist” forces over Nationalist, Communist and Anarchist organisations. In particular the Welsh and Scottish Nationalist Resistance movements were barely given any support leading to them turning to the Collins Irish Government for support. This would explain why the rise in ‘Celtic’ Nationalism in the aftermath of the War despite the best efforts of the Bevan Government.

4) THEY HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE PUBLIC

It's certainly true that most Britons didn't like the Lloyd-George 'government,' but the vast majority of them did not actively resist. This is borne out in letters, diaries, the intelligence assessments of the Axis, Allied and Soviet governments and in the bitter complaints of many resistance officials. The British public thought that the war had been lost, and that they would have to resign themselves to the new way of things. This did not change until Michael Collins astonished the world by inviting in the American armed forces in the summer of 1944.

The other, grislier evidence that the British people have tried to forget is the reprisal killings following Liberation. If most Britons supported the resistance, why were 20,000 of them shot, hanged or beaten to death in just under a month between mid August and September of 1945, the vast majority through the spontaneous actions of their neighbors?
 
Last edited:

Charles EP M.

Well-known member
Published by SLP
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE BRITISH RESISTANCE

1) THE COMMUNISTS DID NOTHING UNTIL STALIN SAID TO

This is partly true, in that various British communist bigwigs did indeed do nothing in the spirit of the Nazi-Soviet Pact and abruptly changed their mind when Stalin wanted. What's left out is that the communist rank-and-file balked at the orders to 'down tools' during Sea Lion and afterwards; unfortunately, this meant rebelling against leadership and forming new groups at the worst possible time. Add in that collaborators handed over lists of known and 'suspected' communists to the Gestapo and SS, and it's estimated one in two communist rebels were killed. Many of the survivors would become part of less explicitly political groups, and just because a communist was in Manchester City (a codename btw, Cracked, not the actual football team), doesn't mean they weren't a communist.

2) THEY ASSASSINATED KING EDWARD VIII

It has been pretty much internalised in the post-occupation mythos that the Resistance was directly responsible for the deaths of King Edward and Queen Wallis on the 1st August 1945, though the supposed assassin has never been revealed. In his memoirs, Victor Rothschild (yes, the man whose attempt to bring Israel-Palestine into the Sterling Area caused the crash of '66) asserted that it was Michael Foot who killed Edward VIII but Foot himself always denied this charge - not that it would have done him any disadvantage, mind. No, as according to the recently released diaries of the couple's driver and the King's letters that were received by Joachim von Ribbentrop in the week leading up to his death, in fact, the truth is far more dull: the couple committed suicide by gunshot. The Resistance never did get their two top targets.

3). THAT THEY WERE DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY THE GOVERNMENT IN EXILE

The British Government in Exile likes to claim they supported all of the Resistance unilaterally, that the entire cause was unified cause to clear out the Nazi’s. This wasn’t true with the Government in Exile emphasising support for the “Democratic” and “Royalist” forces over Nationalist, Communist and Anarchist organisations. In particular the Welsh and Scottish Nationalist Resistance movements were barely given any support leading to them turning to the Collins Irish Government for support. This would explain why the rise in ‘Celtic’ Nationalism in the aftermath of the War despite the best efforts of the Bevan Government.

4) THEY HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE PUBLIC

It's certainly true that most Britons didn't like the Lloyd-George 'government,' but the vast majority of them did not actively resist. This is borne out in letters, diaries, the intelligence assessments of the Axis, Allied and Soviet governments and in the bitter complaints of many resistance officials. The British public thought that the war had been lost, and that they would have to resign themselves to the new way of things. This did not change until Michael Collins astonished the world by inviting in the American armed forces in the summer of 1944.

The other, grislier evidence that the British people have tried to forget is the reprisal killings following Liberation. If most Britons supported the resistance, why were 20,000 of them shot, hanged or beaten to death in just under a month between mid August and September of 1945, the vast majority through the spontaneous actions of their neighbors?


5) THE STREETS OF LONDON WERE STALKED BY AN ANTI-NAZI MASKED AVENGER

First off, the other myth: that the Grey Ghost was just a propaganda creation popularised by films. The Grey Ghost really did exist. Between April 1942 until November 1943, the Ghost - or Lara Shelby, factory worker, wearing a modified pantomime costume - was responsible for twelve confirmed assaults on black marketeers, corrupt landlords, and pimps in the East End. What she did not do was get involved with fighting Nazis or open collaborators, for fear of bringing the SS into the area. The confusion is due to the assassination of Standartenführer Professor Doktor Franz Six, where the King's Army London Regiment tried to fake the Grey Ghost had done it as a cover; the SS, however, saw through it.
 

Skaven

draws thoughtfully on a vape
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE BRITISH RESISTANCE

1) THE COMMUNISTS DID NOTHING UNTIL STALIN SAID TO

This is partly true, in that various British communist bigwigs did indeed do nothing in the spirit of the Nazi-Soviet Pact and abruptly changed their mind when Stalin wanted. What's left out is that the communist rank-and-file balked at the orders to 'down tools' during Sea Lion and afterwards; unfortunately, this meant rebelling against leadership and forming new groups at the worst possible time. Add in that collaborators handed over lists of known and 'suspected' communists to the Gestapo and SS, and it's estimated one in two communist rebels were killed. Many of the survivors would become part of less explicitly political groups, and just because a communist was in Manchester City (a codename btw, Cracked, not the actual football team), doesn't mean they weren't a communist.

2) THEY ASSASSINATED KING EDWARD VIII

It has been pretty much internalised in the post-occupation mythos that the Resistance was directly responsible for the deaths of King Edward and Queen Wallis on the 1st August 1945, though the supposed assassin has never been revealed. In his memoirs, Victor Rothschild (yes, the man whose attempt to bring Israel-Palestine into the Sterling Area caused the crash of '66) asserted that it was Michael Foot who killed Edward VIII but Foot himself always denied this charge - not that it would have done him any disadvantage, mind. No, as according to the recently released diaries of the couple's driver and the King's letters that were received by Joachim von Ribbentrop in the week leading up to his death, in fact, the truth is far more dull: the couple committed suicide by gunshot. The Resistance never did get their two top targets.

3). THAT THEY WERE DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY THE GOVERNMENT IN EXILE

The British Government in Exile likes to claim they supported all of the Resistance unilaterally, that the entire cause was unified cause to clear out the Nazi’s. This wasn’t true with the Government in Exile emphasising support for the “Democratic” and “Royalist” forces over Nationalist, Communist and Anarchist organisations. In particular the Welsh and Scottish Nationalist Resistance movements were barely given any support leading to them turning to the Collins Irish Government for support. This would explain why the rise in ‘Celtic’ Nationalism in the aftermath of the War despite the best efforts of the Bevan Government.

4) THEY HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE PUBLIC

It's certainly true that most Britons didn't like the Lloyd-George 'government,' but the vast majority of them did not actively resist. This is borne out in letters, diaries, the intelligence assessments of the Axis, Allied and Soviet governments and in the bitter complaints of many resistance officials. The British public thought that the war had been lost, and that they would have to resign themselves to the new way of things. This did not change until Michael Collins astonished the world by inviting in the American armed forces in the summer of 1944.

The other, grislier evidence that the British people have tried to forget is the reprisal killings following Liberation. If most Britons supported the resistance, why were 20,000 of them shot, hanged or beaten to death in just under a month between mid August and September of 1945, the vast majority through the spontaneous actions of their neighbors?


5) THE STREETS OF LONDON WERE STALKED BY AN ANTI-NAZI MASKED AVENGER

First off, the other myth: that the Grey Ghost was just a propaganda creation popularised by films. The Grey Ghost really did exist. Between April 1942 until November 1943, the Ghost - or Lara Shelby, factory worker, wearing a modified pantomime costume - was responsible for twelve confirmed assaults on black marketeers, corrupt landlords, and pimps in the East End. What she did not do was get involved with fighting Nazis or open collaborators, for fear of bringing the SS into the area. The confusion is due to the assassination of Standartenführer Professor Doktor Franz Six, where the King's Army London Regiment tried to fake the Grey Ghost had done it as a cover; the SS, however, saw through it.

6) THEY WERE ALL AMERICANS

The subject of much German posturing during the war (and much British grumbling afterwards) this myth is now mainly confined to America, backed up by periodic waves of movies and tv shows. The denunciations from the British Ministry of Information every one recieves probably doesn't help either, in these Anglophobic times. It is true that some Americans did go to fight in the underground, but they scarecely made up the majority of the fighters. The source of this myth seems to be twofold. There is Congressman Lyndon Johnson's famous stranger-than-fiction involvement with the resistance (and long denied role in the assassination of Ambassador Kennedy). More controversially, it is still remembered that Malcolm X's "Total Resistance" speech was given to the Manchester Self Defence Association, a Black British resistance outfit, during his long exile, and confusion seems to have arisen in how that was reported state-side.
 

Time Enough

"Enthusiastic Cis Male Partner"
Pronouns
He/Him
SEVEN COMMON MYTHS ABOUT THE BRITISH RESISTANCE

1) THE COMMUNISTS DID NOTHING UNTIL STALIN SAID TO


This is partly true, in that various British communist bigwigs did indeed do nothing in the spirit of the Nazi-Soviet Pact and abruptly changed their mind when Stalin wanted. What's left out is that the communist rank-and-file balked at the orders to 'down tools' during Sea Lion and afterwards; unfortunately, this meant rebelling against leadership and forming new groups at the worst possible time. Add in that collaborators handed over lists of known and 'suspected' communists to the Gestapo and SS, and it's estimated one in two communist rebels were killed. Many of the survivors would become part of less explicitly political groups, and just because a communist was in Manchester City (a codename btw, Cracked, not the actual football team), doesn't mean they weren't a communist.

2) THEY ASSASSINATED KING EDWARD VIII


It has been pretty much internalised in the post-occupation mythos that the Resistance was directly responsible for the deaths of King Edward and Queen Wallis on the 1st August 1945, though the supposed assassin has never been revealed. In his memoirs, Victor Rothschild (yes, the man whose attempt to bring Israel-Palestine into the Sterling Area caused the crash of '66) asserted that it was Michael Foot who killed Edward VIII but Foot himself always denied this charge - not that it would have done him any disadvantage, mind. No, as according to the recently released diaries of the couple's driver and the King's letters that were received by Joachim von Ribbentrop in the week leading up to his death, in fact, the truth is far more dull: the couple committed suicide by gunshot. The Resistance never did get their two top targets.

3). THAT THEY WERE DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY THE GOVERNMENT IN EXILE

The British Government in Exile likes to claim they supported all of the Resistance unilaterally, that the entire cause was unified cause to clear out the Nazi’s. This wasn’t true with the Government in Exile emphasising support for the “Democratic” and “Royalist” forces over Nationalist, Communist and Anarchist organisations. In particular the Welsh and Scottish Nationalist Resistance movements were barely given any support leading to them turning to the Collins Irish Government for support. This would explain why the rise in ‘Celtic’ Nationalism in the aftermath of the War despite the best efforts of the Bevan Government.

4) THEY HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE PUBLIC

It's certainly true that most Britons didn't like the Lloyd-George 'government,' but the vast majority of them did not actively resist. This is borne out in letters, diaries, the intelligence assessments of the Axis, Allied and Soviet governments and in the bitter complaints of many resistance officials. The British public thought that the war had been lost, and that they would have to resign themselves to the new way of things. This did not change until Michael Collins astonished the world by inviting in the American armed forces in the summer of 1944.

The other, grislier evidence that the British people have tried to forget is the reprisal killings following Liberation. If most Britons supported the resistance, why were 20,000 of them shot, hanged or beaten to death in just under a month between mid August and September of 1945, the vast majority through the spontaneous actions of their neighbors?


5) THE STREETS OF LONDON WERE STALKED BY AN ANTI-NAZI MASKED AVENGER

First off, the other myth: that the Grey Ghost was just a propaganda creation popularised by films. The Grey Ghost really did exist. Between April 1942 until November 1943, the Ghost - or Lara Shelby, factory worker, wearing a modified pantomime costume - was responsible for twelve confirmed assaults on black marketeers, corrupt landlords, and pimps in the East End. What she did not do was get involved with fighting Nazis or open collaborators, for fear of bringing the SS into the area. The confusion is due to the assassination of Standartenführer Professor Doktor Franz Six, where the King's Army London Regiment tried to fake the Grey Ghost had done it as a cover; the SS, however, saw through it.

6) THEY WERE ALL AMERICANS

The subject of much German posturing during the war (and much British grumbling afterwards) this myth is now mainly confined to America, backed up by periodic waves of movies and tv shows. The denunciations from the British Ministry of Information every one recieves probably doesn't help either, in these Anglophobic times. It is true that some Americans did go to fight in the underground, but they scarecely made up the majority of the fighters. The source of this myth seems to be twofold. There is Congressman Lyndon Johnson's famous stranger-than-fiction involvement with the resistance (and long denied role in the assassination of Ambassador Kennedy). More controversially, it is still remembered that Malcolm X's "Total Resistance" speech was given to the Manchester Self Defence Association, a Black British resistance outfit, during his long exile, and confusion seems to have arisen in how that was reported state-side.

7) IT DIDN’T PLAN THE LINCOLN GHETTO UPRISING

It seems that many people believe the Lincoln Ghetto was organised by the British Resistance, a myth that became popular after the 1968 Ealing film ‘The Magnificent Few’ which shows folks like Red Resistance fighter Ernest Millington in the planning stage of the uprising. In reality it was organised by the British Labour Bund and the Children of Zion, a pair of British Jewish Resistance groups who started the uprising when the news came that the British Jews were to be sent to Poland in August 1944, with Lincoln housing about the third of the British Jewish population. The British Resistance came to help about a week into the uprising, helping the evacuation of children from the ghetto and suppling the uprising with fighters and weapons which would eventually lead to the uprising lasting two months and distracting the British collaboration forces and the German Anti-Partisan units from the Soviet front leading to the Soviet breakthroughs of late 44.
 

SenatorChickpea

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EXCLUSIVE: Hannah Carter discusses her new series 'The Sixties: Dreams in America'


Hannah Carter's been on and behind the camera for over two decades now, but she's still forging new territory. Having previously only made documentaries for the cinema- including the Academy Award winning Berlin Days- her first ever TV documentary series is about to premier on BBC America.

The Sixties remain one of the most controversial decades in American history- a time of great hope and great disappointment, of tragedy and triumph, of great music and murdered singers. Hannah Carter has famously said that 'History means nothing if it doesn't speak to today,' so we sat down with her to ask why she's returning our attention to that time and place, and what relevance it has to modern viewers.

Hannah, it's a pleasure to have you with us. Your series begins at the end, in 1969 and Bloody Christmas. Why did you decide to leap in there, and why do you think your audience needs to know about it?
 

Charles EP M.

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Bloody Christmas is, as you say, the end, and everything else needs to be seen through the prism of that - we know what we are seeing is going to fail. It's important that the audience understands the stakes. Everything tried by the musical counter culture and by Martin Luther King ends on December 14th, with the shots fired at 'Black Woodstock'. King, Jimmy Hendrix, and four others dead on the stage, and the six days of riots that followed, is where everything leads to.

I also want it to be clear: this is not the death of naive idealism, as some people will have it. The 'Black Woodstock' concert, unlike its namesake, was the work of dedicated activists who'd looked at the previous concert and Altamont, and learned lessons, and could have achieved their aims of an African-American political and cultural event. Many of those written off as naive from the Sixties were canny, dedicated, and suffered from misfortune or enemy action.

Your series glosses over President Kennedy's affairs and the impact that scandal had on the 1964 election. This is often a huge focus for any documentary or film covering the 60s, so why was it downplayed here?
 

neonduke

Ernst Röhm's Twink Island
You've given the answer yourself, because its a topic thats been done to death. Everyone knows Kennedy's libido nearly lost him '64 and undermined his authority so that his final 4 years were wasted in battles with the Republican dominated House. Not helped of course by the shoulder wound he suffered in Dallas, that coupled with his underlining medical complaints meant we basically had a corpse in the White House in 67 & 68, right when the US needed decisive leadership. Thats why I decided to focus on the later period of his Presidency and the serious impacts his missteps had on the fiber of American society, impacts we are still living with.

Speaking of the Republican party, you do go into great depths on the internal party debate on Civil Rights and the, in hindsight, serious mistakes the party made in cosying up to hardline segregationists in the South and how that lead to the eventual split with the Rockefeller Republicans. Did you have any problems getting this material through the Federal Communications Authority, knowing how touchy they can be when it comes to criticism of party stalwarts like Connolly and Regan?
 

Charles EP M.

Well-known member
Published by SLP
The FCA were [pause] The FCA have their job to do with broadcast standards and we had to be very clear about our facts. As everyone can see, there is extensive primary sources, the minutes from meetings and diary entries and letters, confirming the so-called 'Southern Strategy'. We know this was a plan that started almost immediately after the 1964 election. We do make it clear that, ah, that a number of the advocates hoped to remove the segregationists from the Democrats rather than add them to the Republicans. The [pause] balance was important to the FCA.

[pause] However, we need to be clear: that strategy absolutely set loose forces that the advocates could not control and, based on the facts, is not defensible. The bloodshed during the seventies is a direct result of this, and the facts show many of the strategy's planners expected some bloodshed. "Alabama and Arkansas alone," as we quote in episode 3.

The space programme remains a constant background presence during the show, with one exception - the moon landing itself doesn't get an episode, but the Gemini 6 disaster and its fallout has almost the entirety of episode 4 devoted to it. What led to prioritising that?
 

Skaven

draws thoughtfully on a vape
Well fundamentally no matter the impact it might have had on the American psyche, the moon landing was a Soviet story. That's the truth of it, and I have to say I hope the FCA decides to let one of their dramas about it air over here, some of the camerawork in Gagarin was phenomenal. But Gemini 6? That was an American story, the end of our ambition to reach the stars for a generation. It was a body blow to white Americas self-image, and some of the reactions in the African-American community were astounding, it's a great shame we couldn't get permission from Mr Scott-Heron's estate to play, y'know, that song. So it really wasn't much of a conscious desicion to ignore the landings for Gemini, structure of the story we were telling seemed to demand it really.

Obviously the foreign policy quagmires of this period, and the popular reaction to them, are often seen as the defining images of the time. You've gaced criticism from left and right over not talking about the Congo War a great deal, would you care to give your response.
 

SenatorChickpea

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Perhaps it's because I didn't come to this as an American filmmaker.

My mother was a Biafran orphan. I grew up surrounded by people who'd been driven to Western Europe by the empire enders. If your formative experiences were in Brixton, or for that matter Brussels or Lisbon, then you don't really see the Congo War as an American experience- it was one horrible war among many. I don't think that it actually caused the problems in America that people say it did. I think that it's easy to say that if there hadn't been a Siege of Stanleyville there'd have been no Draft Riots, right, but what I've tried to show in this series is that the problems and tensions were there before the first marine died in the jungle.

I'm sorry, but I need to press you on that. It's alright to say the problems were there before, but tens of thousands of Americans died in that war. It was hugely important in defining pop culture, the counterculture, movies, music, books- all the things your series focuses on. You interviewed Gladys Knight and you didn't talk about her performing in Leopoldville. So again- how do you justify not giving even a single episode to the War?
 
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