A “British” May 68’

[Time Enough]

So with a PoD of let’s say 1957 (Eden resignation) in what way could you have a British May 68’ style protests, strikes, university and workplace occupations and demonstrations occur?

Now whilst Northern Ireland had Civil Rights protests and demonstrations, for the most part, apart from a couple of universities having demonstrations there wasn’t the style of protests that occurred in places like France, Italy, Germany etc.

So in what way could you breed the type of discontent and feeing that could lead to such an event occuring?

 

[Meadow]

As you've said, the question really needs to be English/Welsh/Scottish May 1968, because, erm

Anyway, it's Wilson going into Vietnam.

 

[Time Enough]

As you've said, the question really needs to be English/Welsh/Scottish May 1968, because, erm

Yeah, changed the title a bit just to clarify things a bit more.

Anyway, it's Wilson going into Vietnam.

I do always wonder how possible that is, I could George Brown or Hugh Gaitskell (maybe Callaghan, who knows) but I always err on the side of caution with Wilson on going into Vietnam.

 

[Charles EP M.]

Wilson, IIRC, was opposed but also wanted to keep the US chummy & look lije he was doing something by offering to mediate and this all pissed off LBJ. It doesn't seem likely he'd go.

Maybe we're already there? The UK is invited to help early because of the Malayan Emergency and agrees because mumble-mumble and the anger is Labour won't leave

 

[ShortsBelfast]

I do always wonder how possible that is, I could George Brown or Hugh Gaitskell (maybe Callaghan, who knows) but I always err on the side of caution with Wilson on going into Vietnam.

Now it was pre Czechoslovakia which could have affected this thinking had he survived (though Hungary didn't majorly) but Gaitskell was even keener on cutting defence spending than Wilson was. He was pro nuclear deterrent yes, but partly because it was very cost effective for what it did. He is going to be no more keen on embroiling the UK in Vietnam than Wilson was. OTOH his defence spending cuts are likely to mean earlier Clyde shipyard closures. Which could increase the chances of protests in Scotland.

 

[Callan]

I think the way to get something comparable to May ‘68 would be a PoD in the fifties. The Suez intervention “succeeding”, a different trajectory for the Malayan emergency or another botched colonial intervention under worse leadership than OTL could easily spiral into a quagmire on the scale of Vietnam or even Algeria. And such a long-term foreign policy disaster would be a economically disastrous. A dysfunctional economy, a discredited political class, a radicalized youth, that’s the powder keg you’re looking for.

Of course this would probably butterfly away most of the OTL events we associated with 1968, but if you want the kind of strife and drama in Britain that we saw in other countries, that’s the way to do it.

 

[Mumby]

I've mulled this with @Comisario before and I think my take is a Tory victory in 1959 - the emergent de facto segregation that had been allowed to persist since Windrush worsens and Labour has continuous ructions that permit a Tory victory in 1964.

 

[Time Enough]

OTOH his defence spending cuts are likely to mean earlier Clyde shipyard closures. Which could increase the chances of protests in Scotland.

Intriguing, I do think a Gaitskell Government that inherits an overheating economy and has to engage in cuts, whilst also engaging in a tense relationship with the Unions, would probably lead to a difficult few years to say the least.

I think the way to get something comparable to May ‘68 would be a PoD in the fifties. The Suez intervention “succeeding”, a different trajectory for the Malayan emergency or another botched colonial intervention under worse leadership than OTL could easily spiral into a quagmire on the scale of Vietnam or even Algeria. And such a long-term foreign policy disaster would be a economically disastrous. A dysfunctional economy, a discredited political class, a radicalized youth, that’s the powder keg you’re looking for.

Of course this would probably butterfly away most of the OTL events we associated with 1968, but if you want the kind of strife and drama in Britain that we saw in other countries, that’s the way to do it.

I do think the Malayan Emergency or even the Borneo Conflict (generally any conflict Britain and Suharto is involved) becoming a quagmire are certainly possibilities. A foreign quagmire, and a crap economy would certainly do it.

I would also add in the two major parties being discredited would also help with the disillusionment. Maybe having folks like Brown and Robens leading the charge from the left.

I've mulled this with @Comisario before and I think my take is a Tory victory in 1959 - the emergent de facto segregation that had been allowed to persist since Windrush worsens and Labour has continuous ructions that permit a Tory victory in 1964.

Is that meant to be a Labour victory in 1959 may I ask? It is something I’ve mulled over, particularly if the Conservative’s under someone like Hogg run a race baiting campaign in Alt 64?

 

[Alexander Rooksmoor]

So with a PoD of let’s say 1957 (Eden resignation) in what way could you have a British May 68’ style protests, strikes, university and workplace occupations and demonstrations occur?

Now whilst Northern Ireland had Civil Rights protests and demonstrations, for the most part, apart from a couple of universities having demonstrations there wasn’t the style of protests that occurred in places like France, Italy, Germany etc.

So in what way could you breed the type of discontent and feeing that could lead to such an event occuring?

What if Gaitskell had not died and so he became Prime Minister in 1964? He was more conservative than Wilson and was much more the cold warrior. Britain had contributed troops to the Korean War initially under Attlee's Labour Government. Remember also, Kennedy the Democrat effectively positioned the USA to get into Vietnam and Johnson also a Democrat, escalated and persisted US involvement.

Prime Minister Gaitskell, would certainly would not want to be seen as soft on international Communism. With 3 years of casualties by 1968, we could imagine that the peace movement would have grown far stronger in Britain. This would have especially been the case if the dropping of National Service had been postponed from 1963 so that National Service draftees would fear being sent to Vietnam, even if, for the moment the British relied on regulars; with Gurkhas among those most likely to be sent.

A Gaitskell Labour Government may have faced stronger opposition from the left the way the SPD did in West Germany and while there would not have been the Gramd Coalition as seen in West Germany 1966-69, there might have been resentment on the left of the Labour Party at Gaitskell's approach. This could have fuelled 1968 protests and/or added to the numbers of more radical left-wingers and simply disgruntled young people involved.

One important difference between Britain and continental Europe was that rather than an unreformed university sector, the mid-1960s had seen a rapid expansion of very modern British universities so opening up opportunities that the more conservative French and West German systems were not doing. The old fashioned approaches of the French and West German universities were at the heart of a lot of the student protests in 1968 in those countries. No such university expansion or its delay, in Britain, may have led to a similar response as seen across the Channel.


Remember Great Britain only covers England, Wales and Scotland. The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You may have noticed this distinction coming out recently with radio adverts about road regulations.

 

[RyanF]

Remember Great Britain only covers England, Wales and Scotland. The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You may have noticed this distinction coming out recently with radio adverts about road regulations.

Can't believe @Time Enough has fallen in with the ultra-Loyalist crowd since moving over there.

 

[Time Enough]

Can't believe @Time Enough has fallen in with the ultra-Loyalist crowd since moving over there.

A Day In the Average Life of @Time Enough in Northern Ireland: Gosh I hope I don’t tread on any snakes today.

*opens door to see road covered in snakes like the temple from Raiders*

Shit.

 

[ShortsBelfast]

A Day In the Average Life of @Time Enough in Northern Ireland: Gosh I hope I don’t tread on any snakes today.

*opens door to see road covered in snakes like the temple from Raiders*

Shit.

Now have we never told you the story of the blessed St. Patrick?

 

[Time Enough]

Now have we never told you the story of the blessed St. Patrick?

My partner imagined a story in that St Patrick didn’t actually drive away the snakes, he just secretly kept them for himself. And so he has snakes coming out of his robes etc.


Anyway;

One important difference between Britain and continental Europe was that rather than an unreformed university sector, the mid-1960s had seen a rapid expansion of very modern British universities so opening up opportunities that the more conservative French and West German systems were not doing. The old fashioned approaches of the French and West German universities were at the heart of a lot of the student protests in 1968 in those countries. No such university expansion or its delay, in Britain, may have led to a similar response as seen across the Channel.

If you had a 1959 Labour government followed by the 64’ Conservatives, I doubt that you’d see much of a reform of education in the same way. Which could lead to the tensions that occurred in Otl, particularly if that movement interacts with groups like the IMG.

If you had a more Conservative Labour Party, combined with the Conservatives being the Conservatives and a sense of discontent towards the ruling class, then you probably see an explosion in support for groups like the Institute for Workers Control etc.

 

[iainbhx]

I've mulled this with @Comisario before and I think my take is a Tory victory in 1959 - the emergent de facto segregation that had been allowed to persist since Windrush worsens and Labour has continuous ructions that permit a Tory victory in 1964.

Kill off the Liberals after 1950 and you almost certainly get a Tory victory in 1964.

 

[AH Layard]

If you had a 1959 Labour government followed by the 64’ Conservatives, I doubt that you’d see much of a reform of education in the same way. Which could lead to the tensions that occurred in Otl, particularly if that movement interacts with groups like the IMG.

Weren’t both parties in favour of the Robbins Report and expansion of higher education? (IIRC even the Tory Conference voted heavily for this). The Macmillan government also introduced the national grant system.

 

[RyanF]

Was it during OTL 1968 that some students at one university did issue a list of demands only to receive a polite yet firm letter in response from the Chancellor declining and then listing the prior experiences of the faculty in warfare and demolition from the War before signing off with "Do your worst?"

As to the question itself, I find myself wondering if events conspired before 1968 that would get Macmillan's New Democratic Party off the ground and on the receiving end of an earlier right wing split from Labour who would be absorbed by the Supertories. Feel that in addition to you radicalisation, economic stagnation and an unpopular ongoing conflict you sort of need the democratic alternative on the left to be marginalised.

Not a factor if it's Wilson or another Labour leader that takes the UK into Vietnam, of course, but think if things reach the stage of barricades in the streets under their watch has the Labour left been in politely demurring the entire time? Have the Liberals really been able to make no hay from the discrediting of both Labour and the Tories?

It gets easier the further you go back, but if we're going to do that I'd rather talk about a "British" Years of Lead.

 

[Time Enough]

of barricades in the streets under their watch has the Labour left been in politely demurring the entire time?

I feel a way to short circuit the Labour Left could be a combination of Nye Bevan being expelled, Eric Heffer starting his Marxist Syndicalist unity party, and maybe Labour post Gaitskell picking like Alf Robens or James Callaghan as the party becomes firmly controlled by the Trade Unionists.

Have the Liberals really been able to make no hay from the discrediting of both Labour and the Tories?

I think the @iainbhx suggestion of the Liberals collapsing seems the closet. Or maybe having it be lead by like Roderic Bowen. That all being said, I do like the idea of the Liberals supporting the demonstrators, but that’s just me finding it interesting.

t gets easier the further you go back, but if we're going to do that I'd rather talk about a "British" Years of Lead.

I could get behind a British Years of Lead idea, mainly because it the idea of it intrigues me.

Weren’t both parties in favour of the Robbins Report and expansion of higher education? (IIRC even the Tory Conference voted heavily for this). The Macmillan government also introduced the national grant system.

Huh, didn’t know that. I guess have to get slightly further back with the PoD I guess.