Luther doesn't get to denounce peasant rebels

[Nyvis]

This is something I've been mulling as a TL pod:

OTL, Martin Luther spoke against the German rebels who rose up after his proclamation, urging people to obey their princes. He was martyred soon after, but the damage was done, and only more fringe reform figures maintained support for popular uprising against church and rulers.

What if he got martyred before he got to say his word on the subject? Peasant rebels look like they'd struggle to succeed of course, but there's the model of the Hussites for how much damage they could do if they got their things in order. It's important to note that some of the lower nobility did join in initially, for faith or material gains. So you could easily have something similar to the different factions of the Hussites, between German nobles who want a more German and Protestant state, and peasants, some of which could be pretty radical (up to religious objection to private property).

Instead of a 30 years war proxy conflict between princes (and outside influence), you get revolutionary Protestantism. Might evolve in a German religious nationalism way like the Hussite, it might retain some claim to universality and spread beyond that, or in between, it could have imitators who set up their own national Protestantism. Unlike the Hussites, I think it has the mass to avoid being ground down over repeated crusades.

It would totally upend the nature of revolutionary politics, with religion and political ideology going hand in hand.

 

[ChrisNuttall]

I’ve thought about this one myself, when I was doing research into the period. (Although it was a while ago, so sorry if I mix up the details.)

It isn’t impossible Luther would either have backed the rebels or been dead by the time the rebels exploded into the light. Corruption within the church was his cause and he could certainly expand it, perhaps under a fig leaf of the Church-appointed priests not doing their duty in standing up for their charges. However, he did have powerful patrons in OTL and they would not like him turning into a latter-day John Ball. I’d expect them to turn more reactionary as the peasants demanded more and more concessions from them, perhaps even sliding back towards the Catholic Church. It might end badly.

On the other hand, it might lead to a more powerful social movement spreading through Germany –maybe not quite 1632’s American Revolution 100 years yearly, but a new sense of class awareness, perhaps even a desire to level society to allow a degree of actual social mobilility. Germany would have been a pretty good place for this to start and spread, not least because the local aristocrats really were vile. The long-term effects would be strange – Henry VIII, for example, might not turn against the church so openly in this timeline.

Lots of possibilities here …

Chris

 

[Nyvis]

I’ve thought about this one myself, when I was doing research into the period. (Although it was a while ago, so sorry if I mix up the details.)

It isn’t impossible Luther would either have backed the rebels or been dead by the time the rebels exploded into the light. Corruption within the church was his cause and he could certainly expand it, perhaps under a fig leaf of the Church-appointed priests not doing their duty in standing up for their charges. However, he did have powerful patrons in OTL and they would not like him turning into a latter-day John Ball. I’d expect them to turn more reactionary as the peasants demanded more and more concessions from them, perhaps even sliding back towards the Catholic Church. It might end badly.

On the other hand, it might lead to a more powerful social movement spreading through Germany –maybe not quite 1632’s American Revolution 100 years yearly, but a new sense of class awareness, perhaps even a desire to level society to allow a degree of actual social mobilility. Germany would have been a pretty good place for this to start and spread, not least because the local aristocrats really were vile. The long-term effects would be strange – Henry VIII, for example, might not turn against the church so openly in this timeline.

Lots of possibilities here …

Chris

You have the same dynamic as the Hussite really. The Czech nobles who sided with it for political reasons versus the peasants who would really like replacing the lords with the Lord. And the nobles entertaining defecting to not have to deal with it.

I really can't see Luther siding with the rebels if alive, which is why I suggested having him martyred earlier before he can hear about it.

A Catholic church which has to fight a religious revolution rather than a Protestantism of the princes is going to have a very different counter reformation, that's for sure. I can still see the French kings backing the rebels to mess with the emperors though.

And yes, any English monarch is going to think twice about associating even loosely with Protestantism when it's much more challenging to the social structure below him. Meanwhile, the church is probably going to offer more concessions to monarchs if it's fighting such a dramatic threat.

 

[raharris1973]

This is something I've been mulling as a TL pod:

OTL, Martin Luther spoke against the German rebels who rose up after his proclamation, urging people to obey their princes. He was martyred soon after, but the damage was done, and only more fringe reform figures maintained support for popular uprising against church and rulers.

What if he got martyred before he got to say his word on the subject? Peasant rebels look like they'd struggle to succeed of course, but there's the model of the Hussites for how much damage they could do if they got their things in order. It's important to note that some of the lower nobility did join in initially, for faith or material gains. So you could easily have something similar to the different factions of the Hussites, between German nobles who want a more German and Protestant state, and peasants, some of which could be pretty radical (up to religious objection to private property).

Instead of a 30 years war proxy conflict between princes (and outside influence), you get revolutionary Protestantism. Might evolve in a German religious nationalism way like the Hussite, it might retain some claim to universality and spread beyond that, or in between, it could have imitators who set up their own national Protestantism. Unlike the Hussites, I think it has the mass to avoid being ground down over repeated crusades.

It would totally upend the nature of revolutionary politics, with religion and political ideology going hand in hand.

Luther wasn't martyred in OTL