Different Gran Colombia

[Ricardolindo]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...via-inside-gran-colombia.533915/post-23619398 argued that Simon Bolívar made a mistake in including Ecuador in his national project for Gran Colombia. The problem is that Guayaquil would always have been a cause of conflict with Peru as Peru really wanted the port.
A Gran Colombia consisting of Colombia, Venezuela, Panama and under the right circumstances, Cuba, Santo Domingo and Puerto Rico might have been more viable than trying to keep Ecuador as the Caribbean nations are much more culturally similar and naval transportation was actually faster than crossing the Andes by horse.
What do you think of this idea?

 

[GBW]

Bolivar was a South American first and foremost. He was born in Caracas and fought throughout modern Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Ecuador, Peru and as far south as Bolivia. His forays into the Caribbean were limited to Curacao, Jamaica and Haiti when he was in exile. You'd need a change where Bolivar would become more focused on the Caribbean and naval affairs than he was in OTL.

The opportunity might be when he was in Kingston, Jamaica in the latter half of 1815 trying to get British assistance for his campaign to liberate South America. If he wasn't so quick to accept the Venezuelan pirate Renato Beluche's offer to join the Republican community in exile in Haiti, and still survived the assasination attempt by his manservant, Bolivar might eventually end up with earlier British assistance, while his more prolonged correspondence with Caribbean merchants might give him more of an insight into the Spanish island colonies. If Bolivar gained British assistance before meeting with the other Republicans in Haiti, they might make the core of a force - alongside the British Legions - to try and take the Spanish island possessions to secure as a base before heading to South America. It might also weave them into a more cohesive force both militarily and politically, whereas in OTL they scattered once they returned to Venezuela and effectively became disunited warlords.

The problem is whether Bolivar would be accepted by those in the Caribbean islands. Their economies were heavily dependent on slavery and the slave trade, and Bolivar in OTL promised to free every slave in areas he occupied to Alexandre Pétion, first President of the Republic of Haiti, in return for money and supplies. Cuba was on the road to producing over a third of the world's sugar in 1860, booming economically over the agriculture on their fertile soil on the backs of tens of thousands of slaves imported to the island. In fact, landowners fleeing the slave revolt in Santo Domingo fled to Cuba, and they'd be extremely hostile to someone like Bolivar, with Haitian assistance, trying to liberate their island. The Haitians, alternatively, would be wary of Bolivar trying to take Santo Domingo, also on Hispaniola, to be part of his new country. Puerto Rico, OTOH, was the destination of immigrants loyal to the Spanish Crown fleeing other Spanish colonies that were rebelling, and they'd be extremely unwelcoming to Bolivar as well.

Unfortunately, for a variety of cirumstances, Bolivar's Gran Colombia would not be welcome in Spain's colonies in the Greater Antilles.

 

[Ricardolindo]

Bolivar was a South American first and foremost. He was born in Caracas and fought throughout modern Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Ecuador, Peru and as far south as Bolivia. His forays into the Caribbean were limited to Curacao, Jamaica and Haiti when he was in exile. You'd need a change where Bolivar would become more focused on the Caribbean and naval affairs than he was in OTL.

The opportunity might be when he was in Kingston, Jamaica in the latter half of 1815 trying to get British assistance for his campaign to liberate South America. If he wasn't so quick to accept the Venezuelan pirate Renato Beluche's offer to join the Republican community in exile in Haiti, and still survived the assasination attempt by his manservant, Bolivar might eventually end up with earlier British assistance, while his more prolonged correspondence with Caribbean merchants might give him more of an insight into the Spanish island colonies. If Bolivar gained British assistance before meeting with the other Republicans in Haiti, they might make the core of a force - alongside the British Legions - to try and take the Spanish island possessions to secure as a base before heading to South America. It might also weave them into a more cohesive force both militarily and politically, whereas in OTL they scattered once they returned to Venezuela and effectively became disunited warlords.

The problem is whether Bolivar would be accepted by those in the Caribbean islands. Their economies were heavily dependent on slavery and the slave trade, and Bolivar in OTL promised to free every slave in areas he occupied to Alexandre Pétion, first President of the Republic of Haiti, in return for money and supplies. Cuba was on the road to producing over a third of the world's sugar in 1860, booming economically over the agriculture on their fertile soil on the backs of tens of thousands of slaves imported to the island. In fact, landowners fleeing the slave revolt in Santo Domingo fled to Cuba, and they'd be extremely hostile to someone like Bolivar, with Haitian assistance, trying to liberate their island. The Haitians, alternatively, would be wary of Bolivar trying to take Santo Domingo, also on Hispaniola, to be part of his new country. Puerto Rico, OTOH, was the destination of immigrants loyal to the Spanish Crown fleeing other Spanish colonies that were rebelling, and they'd be extremely unwelcoming to Bolivar as well.

Unfortunately, for a variety of cirumstances, Bolivar's Gran Colombia would not be welcome in Spain's colonies in the Greater Antilles.

Thanks for the detailed reply.
Bolívar's campaign in Peru and Bolivia was very unpopular in Gran Colombia.
I agree Cuba is a stretch but Santo Domingo tried to join Gran Colombia and there was an attempt to create a junta in Puerto Rico at the time. Haiti made a big mistake in annexing Santo Domingo, IMO.
BTW, there was no war in Panama and Bolívar was reluctant to annex it.

 

[Ricardolindo]

Bolivar was a South American first and foremost. He was born in Caracas and fought throughout modern Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Ecuador, Peru and as far south as Bolivia. His forays into the Caribbean were limited to Curacao, Jamaica and Haiti when he was in exile. You'd need a change where Bolivar would become more focused on the Caribbean and naval affairs than he was in OTL.

The opportunity might be when he was in Kingston, Jamaica in the latter half of 1815 trying to get British assistance for his campaign to liberate South America. If he wasn't so quick to accept the Venezuelan pirate Renato Beluche's offer to join the Republican community in exile in Haiti, and still survived the assasination attempt by his manservant, Bolivar might eventually end up with earlier British assistance, while his more prolonged correspondence with Caribbean merchants might give him more of an insight into the Spanish island colonies. If Bolivar gained British assistance before meeting with the other Republicans in Haiti, they might make the core of a force - alongside the British Legions - to try and take the Spanish island possessions to secure as a base before heading to South America. It might also weave them into a more cohesive force both militarily and politically, whereas in OTL they scattered once they returned to Venezuela and effectively became disunited warlords.

The problem is whether Bolivar would be accepted by those in the Caribbean islands. Their economies were heavily dependent on slavery and the slave trade, and Bolivar in OTL promised to free every slave in areas he occupied to Alexandre Pétion, first President of the Republic of Haiti, in return for money and supplies. Cuba was on the road to producing over a third of the world's sugar in 1860, booming economically over the agriculture on their fertile soil on the backs of tens of thousands of slaves imported to the island. In fact, landowners fleeing the slave revolt in Santo Domingo fled to Cuba, and they'd be extremely hostile to someone like Bolivar, with Haitian assistance, trying to liberate their island. The Haitians, alternatively, would be wary of Bolivar trying to take Santo Domingo, also on Hispaniola, to be part of his new country. Puerto Rico, OTOH, was the destination of immigrants loyal to the Spanish Crown fleeing other Spanish colonies that were rebelling, and they'd be extremely unwelcoming to Bolivar as well.

Unfortunately, for a variety of cirumstances, Bolivar's Gran Colombia would not be welcome in Spain's colonies in the Greater Antilles.

Leaving aside annexation of the Spanish Caribbean, do you agree with the argument that Bolívar made a mistake in including Ecuador in his national project for Gran Colombia? The problem is that Guayaquil would always have been a cause of conflict with Peru as Peru really wanted the port.

 

[GBW]

Leaving aside annexation of the Spanish Caribbean, do you agree with the argument that Bolívar made a mistake in including Ecuador in his national project for Gran Colombia? The problem is that Guayaquil would always have been a cause of conflict with Peru as Peru really wanted the port.

The problem, really, was that Bolivar had even grander dreams than that. He hoped to unite all of the former Spanish colonies of South America. Gran Colombia also had claims on Jaén and Maynas dating from colonial times, and Bolivar's declaration that the borders of the new nations should conform to the old Spanish administrative borders meant that both Peru (of the old Viceroyalty of Lima) and Gran Colombia (Viceroyalty of New Granada) both had plausible claims in Ecuador. Peru was also wary of the Colombian troops in Bolivia, which had even been named for Bolivar, and they had proclaimed him "Father of the Republic and Supreme Chief of State" until Bolivar relinquished it to Antonio José de Sucre. Bolivar had initially wanted Bolivia to be part of Peru, which it had been part of as Upper Peru under Spanish rule, or even to join Argentina (which it had been part of in the last few decades of Spanish rule in the Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata), as he felt that its central location would be a source of future wars for the new country. So the real problem was Bolivar's initial feeling that the borders of the new nations should just be those of the old Spanish colonial ones were what drove into the war with Peru, as the old Spanish borders and decrees had been through unmapped, unpeopled wilderness.

So Peru had many reasons to be wary of Gran Colombia and Bolivar himself. Bolivar's ultimate vision of incorporating all of South America, border disputes, and Colombian soldiers and influence in neighboring Bolivia. The doom of Gran Colombia, ultimately, was internal. Venezuela had threatened to secede just before the war with Peru, focused around José Antonio Páez and supported by those with strong federalist sentiments. The later constituent assembly, the Convention of Ocaña, that Bolivar had promised to defuse that crisis, collapsed over differences between Bolivar's supporters and the federalists over the country's constitution. Bolivar ultimately became disillusioned with it all and resigned from the presidency, and Gran Colombia collapsed into its three successor countries.

 

[Ricardolindo]

The problem, really, was that Bolivar had even grander dreams than that. He hoped to unite all of the former Spanish colonies of South America. Gran Colombia also had claims on Jaén and Maynas dating from colonial times, and Bolivar's declaration that the borders of the new nations should conform to the old Spanish administrative borders meant that both Peru (of the old Viceroyalty of Lima) and Gran Colombia (Viceroyalty of New Granada) both had plausible claims in Ecuador. Peru was also wary of the Colombian troops in Bolivia, which had even been named for Bolivar, and they had proclaimed him "Father of the Republic and Supreme Chief of State" until Bolivar relinquished it to Antonio José de Sucre. Bolivar had initially wanted Bolivia to be part of Peru, which it had been part of as Upper Peru under Spanish rule, or even to join Argentina (which it had been part of in the last few decades of Spanish rule in the Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata), as he felt that its central location would be a source of future wars for the new country. So the real problem was Bolivar's initial feeling that the borders of the new nations should just be those of the old Spanish colonial ones were what drove into the war with Peru, as the old Spanish borders and decrees had been through unmapped, unpeopled wilderness.

So Peru had many reasons to be wary of Gran Colombia and Bolivar himself. Bolivar's ultimate vision of incorporating all of South America, border disputes, and Colombian soldiers and influence in neighboring Bolivia. The doom of Gran Colombia, ultimately, was internal. Venezuela had threatened to secede just before the war with Peru, focused around José Antonio Páez and supported by those with strong federalist sentiments. The later constituent assembly, the Convention of Ocaña, that Bolivar had promised to defuse that crisis, collapsed over differences between Bolivar's supporters and the federalists over the country's constitution. Bolivar ultimately became disillusioned with it all and resigned from the presidency, and Gran Colombia collapsed into its three successor countries.

Thanks for the reply.
Bolívar's dream of uniting all of the former Spanish colonies in South America was impossible.
As the post I linked to says, even including Peru and Bolivia in Gran Colombia was very unlikely at least in the short term because of the distances. Maybe 100 years later with railways and expanded roads, it could have worked but not at the time.