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Least favorite alt-history story?

The Red said:
What would be the best time to invade?
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Well, to be an honest killjoy, there probably wasn't after the actual Korean War. Even at the biggest on-paper (and unsustainable) advantage in the late 70s through much of the 80s, the ROK would never again be the pushover it was in 1950. Whatever else he was, Kim Il-Sung was no fool, and he knew this.

If I had to pick a point, I'd say from 1975 (right after Vietnam like you said) to the mid-1980s (After the North's buildup but before the South's boom really reaches its army), but even then, you need a lot of convenient PODs and storyline setups (very convenient political changes, for starters) to make it work. Second Korean Wars are closer to Asian Fuldapocalypses then they are to "well, it didn't happen, but it could plausibly with a few changes" alternate history conflicts.
 
Coiler said:
Well, to be an honest killjoy, there probably wasn't after the actual Korean War. Even at the biggest on-paper (and unsustainable) advantage in the late 70s through much of the 80s, the ROK would never again be the pushover it was in 1950. Whatever else he was, Kim Il-Sung was no fool, and he knew this.

If I had to pick a point, I'd say from 1975 (right after Vietnam like you said) to the mid-1980s (After the North's buildup but before the South's boom really reaches its army), but even then, you need a lot of convenient PODs and storyline setups (very convenient political changes, for starters) to make it work. Second Korean Wars are closer to Asian Fuldapocalypses then they are to "well, it didn't happen, but it could plausibly with a few changes" alternate history conflicts.
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All this said, power to your elbow. Would be great to see what you’ve come up with.
 
Coiler said:
Let me give a complaint about one trend that's been catching my eye since I've starting researching for a possible AH story concerning one: Second Korean Wars. I've noticed this pattern concerning them across multiple TLs where they seem to be used not as legitimate opportunities but just as conduits for "shocking swerves". Besides issues in execution and going straight to total war over more realistic unconventional/limited steps (which I can understand as a wargamer but still rightfully critique in terms of plausibility), there's the issue of:

  • The north never attacking from a position of strength when the Americans/southerners are comparably weaker. Nope, it almost always happens to be a never-in-doubt situation where they're invading an already-on-alert south after the Soviet collapse (the POD is the Americans hitting the north's nuclear facilities, so they would definitely be on guard, taking away from any surprise).
  • The Americans tend to use nuclear weapons outright even when they clearly don't have to.
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There was a TL at AH.com, Northern Storm by gtrof IIRC, which was premised on North Korea timing its offensive on the start of the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, which was probably the least worst window of opportunity post-Cold War. The US military would struggle to respond to a hot situation in East Asia with its assets already committed in the Middle East. In the end, of course, it's still a North Korean defeat.
 
Bolt451 said:
Reading into Cold War Aircraft (so I know what a TL on AH.com is talking about) and I'm suddenly reminded of a short TL on othertimelines (I think) where the Avro Arrow isn't cancelled. Canada sells Arrows to the US in exchange for several Saturn V rockets and landed on the moon!

It wasn't bad, it wasn't really anything. It was just such a weird leap!
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Blame whacko Randall Whitcomb "CF-105 conspirationist" for that. Also the true story that, when the Arrow was canned in '59, the 25 brighest Avro Canada engineers went to Houston to create Gemini at NASA. But that's hardly worth a Saturn V !
 
Archibald said:
Interesting. OTL in 1960 a pack of 25 bright Canadian engineers, orphans from the cancelled Arrow, made their way into the United States and build... the Gemini capsule. I suppose that TL author was aware of that connection...
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Archibald said:
Blame whacko Randall Whitcomb "CF-105 conspirationist" for that. Also the true story that, when the Arrow was canned in '59, the 25 brighest Avro Canada engineers went to Houston to create Gemini at NASA. But that's hardly worth a Saturn V !
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It wasnt a case of the Avro engineers working on Saturn or some Canadian space projected. It was just a "And then we swapped" and suddenly Canada is launching rockets out of British Columbia or wherever.
 
SenatorChickpea said:
I think it was Jonathan Edelstein who was nominated for that award and turned it down with more courtesy than you'd expect for a man whose work about the inherent strength of multiracial, multicultural societies had been offered a badge that literally had the stars and bars on it.
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Okay, when Matt said "the Unabashed Neo-Confederate Award", I thought he was doing a mean joke about something, I didn't think this really existed
 
I don't know if it has the same design still- I stopped looking at the awards years ago when I realised that I was down to three or four timelines on the site I still follow.

EDIT: Upon checking, it looks like they compromised by dropping the confederate imagery but keeping the name of the racist apologist. It is like a real awards body after all! And Jonathan E ended up accepting it a few years ago after they made the changes.

I dunno, there's a lot I like about the other place and I certainly don't think the first generation of internet alternate history should be disposed of, but what exactly does Robert Perkins' work serve as if not as a cautionary tale about how this genre attracts a fringe of cranks fighting for their pet lost causes?
 
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Oddly I don't think I ever read any of his (explicitly) Lost Cause stuff, it was his ancient timelines (including the Inca one) I always remembered him for.
Though I wonder what I'd see in hindsight that I missed at the time in those.
 
He was one of the first major writers on the forum to pass away when it was starting to get big. The general attitude at the time was "don't speak ill of the dead" and like, honestly, AH.com in general was a lot more tolerant of open neo-Confederate/wehraboo/Rhodesia worship type content back then anyway unfortunately.
 
Bolt451 said:
It wasnt a case of the Avro engineers working on Saturn or some Canadian space projected. It was just a "And then we swapped" and suddenly Canada is launching rockets out of British Columbia or wherever.
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Fact is that Avro Canada (and Canada) had a tremendous potential after 1944. Avro Canada, Canadair, DHC. Yet (somewhat like Great Britain) politics decided otherwise. By 1970 nothing interesting was left. Personally I'm a die-hard fan, not only of the Arrow, but also of the CL-84. Plus the DHC STOL transports.

But buying Saturn V, really ? that's a couple of bridges too far. Apollo basic issue, it was no "DC-3 / 707 / 747 to the Moon". The entire 3500 ton stack was hugely expensive and unpractical. Because expendable.
 
Charles EP M. said:
Okay, when Matt said "the Unabashed Neo-Confederate Award", I thought he was doing a mean joke about something, I didn't think this really existed
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In the wake of Dylann Roof's church shooting in 2015, there was that big debate in US media about whether the Confederate flag was racist. At the other place, nearly everyone agreed that yes, it is indeed a symbol of white supremacy. So I brought up the fact that the board had its own award named after an outspoken Confederate apologist and featuring a recognizable version of the flag. And suddenly plenty of people went "Don't speak ill of the dead", "it honors a fallen comrade", "it's board tradition, not racism", etc. To his credit, Ian called for the award to be redesigned. Pity he didn't change the name as well.

Besides, I think it was @Japhy who said at the time that the award is a glorified popularity contest and doesn't serve a useful purpose. I agreed with him then and I still do.
 
Matt said:
If one wins the Unabashed Neo-Confederate Award on the other site, does that person’s works become eligible for being included in the worst here?
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SenatorChickpea said:
I think it was Jonathan Edelstein who was nominated for that award and turned it down with more courtesy than you'd expect for a man whose work about the inherent strength of multiracial, multicultural societies had been offered a badge that literally had the stars and bars on it.
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Sorry am I missing something?

Also congratulations @Matt !
 
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