Protestant Bavaria

[Ricardolindo]

How could we get Bavaria to go Protestant, just like the rest of the German states? If we did, what are the effects?
First, is Bavaria more likely to be Lutheran or Calvinist?
Second, Catholicism would be even more weakened in the Holy Roman Empire than in our timeline. Is it possible that, finding themselves the only major Imperial family still Catholic, the Austrian Habsburgs, themselves, would go Protestant?
@Alex Richards

 

[Alex Richards]

Essentially what you need is 'reason for a Duke of Bavaria to split with the Pope'. I think, realistically, the only option that seems remotely plausible is the dynastic dispute that led to a power-sharing agreement between Wilhelm IV and Ludwig X in 1514 doesn't come to pass, and the dispute between the two, and between Ludwig X and the Habsburgs over who was the rightful ruler of Bohemia, ends up leading to one or the other adopting Lutheranism. And it needs to be at this point because the Pope had already given Bavaria new powers as a head of the Counter-Reformation by the 1520s and that's a leadership position you just don't abandon.

Even then, I suspect the most likely thing is that the next generation just converts to Catholicism. Although this could lead to a weaker Bavaria for a while if the Estates have gone largely Lutheran.

 

[Ricardolindo]

Essentially what you need is 'reason for a Duke of Bavaria to split with the Pope'. I think, realistically, the only option that seems remotely plausible is the dynastic dispute that led to a power-sharing agreement between Wilhelm IV and Ludwig X in 1514 doesn't come to pass, and the dispute between the two, and between Ludwig X and the Habsburgs over who was the rightful ruler of Bohemia, ends up leading to one or the other adopting Lutheranism. And it needs to be at this point because the Pope had already given Bavaria new powers as a head of the Counter-Reformation by the 1520s and that's a leadership position you just don't abandon.

Even then, I suspect the most likely thing is that the next generation just converts to Catholicism. Although this could lead to a weaker Bavaria for a while if the Estates have gone largely Lutheran.

Duke William IV originally sympathized with the Reformation.
Regardless, Bavaria was basically the only German state that stayed Catholic. Is it true that a reason for that was its proximity to Italy?

 

[Alex Richards]

Duke William IV originally sympathized with the Reformation.
Regardless, Bavaria was basically the only German state that stayed Catholic. Is it true that a reason for that was its proximity to Italy?

Eh, it's more that he originally tolerated the reformation, then decided that the combination of the political influence from being a leader of the Counter-Reformation (which did, actually, include some level of political control over the church locally) and the threat of the German Peasants War meant it was a bad thing and so he banned Lutheranism.

 

[Doctor Sulemain]

Eh, it's more that he originally tolerated the reformation, then decided that the combination of the political influence from being a leader of the Counter-Reformation (which did, actually, include some level of political control over the church locally) and the threat of the German Peasants War meant it was a bad thing and so he banned Lutheranism.

The German Peasants War needs more things written about it.

 

[Makemakean]

Regardless, Bavaria was basically the only German state that stayed Catholic.

Really?

Oh, fuck!

It's happened again!

Sorry, I'm from a timeline in which Austria, and big chunks of Swabia and the Rhineland stayed Catholic.

Folks, I wish to recruit a small team of professionals to break into CERN.

I know, it's not ideal, but they are the place most likely to have the technological components necessary for me to get back home.

To get through security, our best chances are to impersonate Swiss nationals.

Does anyone here speak passable Romansh?

 

[Ricardolindo]

Really?

Oh, fuck!

It's happened again!

Sorry, I'm from a timeline in which Austria, and big chunks of Swabia and the Rhineland stayed Catholic.

Folks, I wish to recruit a small team of professionals to break into CERN.

I know, it's not ideal, but they are the place most likely to have the technological components necessary for me to get back home.

To get through security, our best chances are to impersonate Swiss nationals.

Does anyone here speak passable Romansh?

Your post is amusing, but, FYI, what's now Austria was majority Protestant for a while. As for those parts of Swabia and the Rhineland, I don't know if they, actually, were states.

 

[Makemakean]

Your post is amusing, but, FYI, what's now Austria was majority Protestant for a while. As for those parts of Swabia and the Rhineland, I don't know if they, actually, were states.

How were these principalities and duchies not states while other principalities and duchies were states?

Are you determining that on a basis of internal organization with bureaucracies and feudal hierarchies, etc., or are you just looking at a map and going "not containing enough area for me to deem it a state"?

 

[Ricardolindo]

How were these principalities and duchies not states while other principalities and duchies were states?

Are you determining that on a basis of internal organization with bureaucracies and feudal hierarchies, etc., or are you just looking at a map and going "not containing enough area for me to deem it a state"?

I meant that I didn't know enough about German history to know if those parts of Swabia and the Rhineland had been independent states.

 

[Alex Richards]

I meant that I didn't know enough about German history to know if those parts of Swabia and the Rhineland had been independent states.

As independent as Bavaria certainly.

 

[Makemakean]

As independent as Bavaria certainly.

A fair point, Alex, but I note that you're avoiding my central question:

Do you speak passable Romansh?

 

[Makemakean]

I meant that I didn't know enough about German history to know if those parts of Swabia and the Rhineland had been independent states.

Ah! Well, then, I misunderstood you. I took it that you did not consider them to be states in the same fashion as, say, Bavaria or Saxony.

 

[Geordie]

A fair point, Alex, but I note that you're avoiding my central question:

Do you speak passable Romansh?

If I was looking for a Romansch speaker on this board, Alex would probably be in my top three.

 

[Alex Richards]

If I was looking for a Romansch speaker on this board, Alex would probably be in my top three.

I mean considering I can manage a somewhat sparse French, holiday German and a smattering of Italian...

 

[iainbhx]

Ah! Well, then, I misunderstood you. I took it that you did not consider them to be states in the same fashion as, say, Bavaria or Saxony.

Some of the Swabian states were reasonably independent states within the Holy Roman Empire and what we consider now as Bavaria isn't the same as the Electorate.

Quite substantial parts of Franconia, for instance, were Protestant.

 

[frustrated progressive]

Your post is amusing, but, FYI, what's now Austria was majority Protestant for a while. As for those parts of Swabia and the Rhineland, I don't know if they, actually, were states.

That distinction seems like hairsplitting?

 

[iainbhx]

That distinction seems like hairsplitting?

No, it's fair. There were plenty of states - especially in Swabia which might have have had Reichsfreiheit but weren't really capable of operating as anything more than a village & castle government. The Rheinland was rather less so, although there was a lot of heavy splitting of territories.

 

[Geordie]

I mean considering I can manage a somewhat sparse French, holiday German and a smattering of Italian...

Sounds like you're rewarding my faith - that's the rest of the Confederation covered.

Top two would be Nigel and Iain, fwiw.

 

[iainbhx]

Sounds like you're rewarding my faith - that's the rest of the Confederation covered.

Top two would be Nigel and Iain, fwiw.

Not me. I speak German, sort of. I used to manage in French but it's been 15 years and I'm not very fond of the Confederation.

Now if you needed Boarisch, I sort of understand it and could make a stab at it.

 

[Geordie]

Not me. I speak German, sort of. I used to manage in French but it's been 15 years and I'm not very fond of the Confederation.

Now if you needed Boarisch, I sort of understand it and could make a stab at it.

That might be true, but unless one of the board is Romansch, or has been studiously plugging away at Duolingo from a bedsit in Winchelsea, Wabash or Wellington, I think we're vanishingly unlikely to have any. In which case, you three are some of the best outside shots going.